By symbiosis I simply mean mutually beneficial coexistence.

We've barely achieved that with each other, but my point here is that we should strive to achieve that with the machines.

We're still treating it as if someone has to win and someone has to lose. Someone has to come out "on top."

If that's the game we want to play, against an opponent that is self improving... that doesn't strike me as an excellent strategy. We should probably pick a different one.

--

To answer your question, the incentive is so that we can continue to exist.

If the market doesn't reward our continued existence, then we should probably have a conversation about that at some point... I've heard the global economy described as a misaligned super-organism even before AI. AI mostly just makes it go faster in roughly the same directions it was already going.

Simulating the "human search method" in silico doesn't need to include specific personalities, but they do provide a bootstrap, just as we've bootstrapped current AI with human language.

For symbiosis, there may be an advantage to the physical adaptability of biology.

In general, it's currently unclear if biology is emulating what we're creating in computers, if computers are emulating what we achieve biologically, or if both approaches are imperfect emulations of a different ideal search method.

And he was not an Ayrab (Salmon in his intro CS book claims Al-Khuarezmi was an Arabic scholar--which is false and made me lose all respect for Salmon as an educator. If he got such an elementary fact wrong, what else is there that could be incomplete?)

PS: Yes Alkhuarezmi wrote in Arabic, but he was not an Arab. All classical Persian scholars at the time were fluent in Arabic as it was the lingua franca of science, medicine, philosophy and theology.

That's funny about Feynman, I didn't know that.

I've read bits and pieces of Lilly. The most interesting thing I remember is that he was trying to establish two-way communication between humans and dolphins. I recall he was building some kind of computer system for the purpose, but I guess he was about half a century too early.

I guess in our age the more pressing question would be learning to figure out how to communicate with the machines. That's probably going to turn out to be more important in the long run.

[0] The bit that stayed with me is the one that he repeated in interviews. The physical body imposes definite limits. That always seemed a little arbitrary to me, from the point of view of pure consciousness, it's not clear to me why it should be that way. Or to flip it around, you can transcend the limits of the mind, but then what effect does that have on "external" reality? Does it just make you less bad at decision-making, or is there a deeper effect?

(And while I'm at it... Something that bugged me about simulation theory, if the outside is probably simulated, why wouldn't the inside be too? Sounds a lot cleaner than having a bunch of brains floating around in a data center.)

And there is also the reason for why I keep all this trash around in my house instead of throwing it away. The odds that I'll ever need it are pretty slim, but if I should need it, it would be a hassle to reacquire, and it costs me almost nothing to keep it around.

So, for anyone thinking of using Ketamine on the regular or even monthly, there is good evidence that EGCG (epigallocatechin gallate) administered 30 minutes before prevents KBS (Ketamine Bladder Syndrome), in rats: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187952261...

This promising rat study from 2015 shows that EGCG extracted from green tea has a protective effect on the bladder, reversing ketamine-induced damage to control levels. So if you are taking ketamine for major depression or recreationally, taking EGCG before may prevent long-term bladder damage.

Summary from the study:

# Objective

To investigate the protective effect of green tea epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) on long-term ketamine-induced ulcerative cystitis (KIC) using a ketamine addiction rat model.

# Materials and methods

Thirty Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into three groups which received saline, ketamine (25 mg/kg/d), or ketamine combined with EGCG (10 μM/kg) for a period of 28 days. In each group, cystometry and a metabolic cage micturition pattern study were performed weekly. Masson's trichrome study was done to evaluate the morphologic changes. Western blot analyses were carried out to examine the expressions of inflammatory protein [transforming growth factor-β (TGF-β)] and fibrosis proteins (fibronectin and type I collagen) in bladder tissues.

# Results

Chronic ketamine treatment resulted in bladder hyperactivity with a significant increase in micturition frequency and a decrease in bladder compliance. These alterations in micturition pattern were accompanied by increases in the expressions of inflammatory and fibrosis markers, TGF-β, fibronectin, and type I collagen after long-term ketamine treatment. Masson's trichrome stain showed that ketamine treatment decreased urothelium thickness while increasing the collagen to smooth muscle ratio and exacerbating interstitial fibrosis. By contrast, simultaneous EGCG and ketamine treatment reversed ketamine-induced damage to almost control levels, showing the protective effect of EGCG.

I think it's because our society legalized and even promotes the strongest substances of them all, so THC seems very subtle in comparison to something like caffeine and alcohol which is arguably the most potent psychedelic inebriant known delivering loss of motor control, at high doses total loss of consciousness, completely altered vision and decision-making to the point you can't operate machinery or do basic tasks. It has hypnogogic effects that show you closed-eye visuals and make you sleepy. Kinda funny how alcohol is the most accepted "drug", to the point it isn't even called one - yet its effects are as intense and socially disruptive as the hardest drugs available.

Coffee, also. The effects of C. arabica is like a very strong version of the A. muscaria mushroom. We have cultivated it to be insanely potent over the centuries. Coffee is about the most potent and euphoric stimulant I can consume without it feeling like it's taking over and ruining my identity - like you get with a lot of pharmacological concoctions.

> the way high strength marijuana or an edible does

Yeah, I don't think it's great for every personality type. It's a "value-changing" drug that will change your opinions on things, and make you think about personal things in ways you would naturally avoid (sometimes to your benefit). I'm no psychologist but THC is powerful enough to change you enough that you can lose friends, family, and interests - but you may gain some new ones, or realize that you're better off without those things. At any rate, it's a very psychological drug that makes you re-order your life. Some people don't need it. If you don't, probably better off without it (not medical advice! just some guy's rant).

> salvia

I'll share my experience with it, because it's perhaps the most mis-marketed thing out there. My experience with the dried leaf (1x - just the real whole leaves you get at those hippie crystal type shops) is nothing whatsoever like people have described. I had 0 trips or any "high". The experience to me is an intense form of focus, as if nothing can distract you. It's subtle, but you can lock into work like crazy if you put this in a pour-over coffee. The best way I would describe it is you quickly "forget" or "let go" of unwanted thoughts, effortlessly, and it helps you focus. It's not euphoric in the slightest - so I think people miss this very useful effect. It's zen. Clear and focused. It might compete with ADHD medication, so maybe it's not promoted very much since it may be a market threat. That's the effect though IMO. Think - coffee high without the high. 10x, 25x salvia gets "weird" only because it's too much at once. I think if you "turned that effect up" to the max it would be like having dementia, because you would not be able to hold onto anything. But turn that effect back down to 1x and you have something quite useful for focused work. I compare it to A. muscaria, coffee, or tea, but it's "lighter" (and more efficient) than caffeine.

Same for me. The one time I did, I was at Trader Joe's and had the most bizarre experience looking at everyone shopping.

I could not believe that the products were sitting right there in the open, and yet nobody was taking them and just walking off. There was all sorts of polity and etiquette - millions of rules were being followed almost like a choreographed event.

I found it uncontrollably hilarious that everyone was pretending to not notice everyone else in the store. They would stand 5 inches from someone looking at canned food, and both people would pay no attention at all to each other.

Anyway, the way I looked was probably crazy, and it eliminated my inhibitions too much where I was kinda moving before thinking - didn't like that feeling. I almost grabbed someone's item out of their cart and said something about it, but I don't know what I'd say. I probably would have just started laughing like a maniac.

I'm afraid on a larger dose I would go somewhere and do something before realizing what I'm doing. The microdose is the best for that kind of thing, IMO. Same reason I will have a beer or glass of wine, and don't like getting smashed in public.