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Posted by awnird 14 hours ago

As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing(thewalrus.ca)
387 points | 456 commentspage 4
flinux 12 hours ago|
I see only one simple solution (though we should discuss the more complex ones): if Google directly answers a search query, then it must be held accountable for it, for better or for worse, and therefore assume all the benefits and (legal) liabilities that this entails
inigyou 1 hour ago||
Already happened: https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-holds-google-liable-for-f...
watson_engineer 10 hours ago||
[flagged]
JohnMakin 5 hours ago||
we built extremely powerful plausible bullshit machines targeted toward and trained on an electorate and population that has historically bad education and reading levels, built on top of an already fraught and fragile web which was also built off predatory basically unregulated behavior with a shaky relationship with “truth” and are surprised people have no idea what’s going on?

This was the whole point of it all and why the people in power have bet the farm on it.

inigyou 1 hour ago||
I think it's also brainwashed the people in power. Half of them have no idea about anything and got their positions by luck.
wartywhoa23 4 hours ago||
I'd quit reading HN long time ago if not for comments like yours, when people call a spade precisely a spade and reignite my smoldering hope for the humankind.
ElProlactin 13 hours ago||
There's too much going on in this article and while I think some of the points are valid, others go too far.

A lot of the "cultural record" the author refers to is just digital junk. Random digital content that very few people care about, if we're being honest. Trying to hoard every bit of digital information ever produced is not the same thing as preserving "culture".

Case in point:

> Even the increasing use of ephemeral formats like Instagram Stories and WhatsApp status updates means that large portions of cultural, social, and political communication are never conserved in the first place. As a society, we can probably survive bad search results and come up with another way to schedule a sunset make-out session. But we can’t aspire to sovereignty if we can’t retain and retrieve our collective memory.

For most of human history, nobody was trying to "conserve" every cultural, social or political communication ever produced, and I fail to see how Instagram Stories and WhatsApp status updates, many of which aren't even truly broadcast publicly for all to see, are part of some imaginary "collective memory."

If you find a web page, see an Instagram Story or receive a message that's important to you, save it or take a screenshot. But let's not pretend all these things belong in a global Digital Civilizational Archives.

jbm 12 hours ago||
While I dislike Instagram reels and stories, I do feel like there is almost certainly scientific studies on radicalization that would benefit from actual histories of dumb memes. I feel like that about a lot of things, really.

There probably are some important hidden discord groups that would explain the origin of many political positions. Unlike smokey meetings in scummy bars, that exists now and is on a database somewhere.

inigyou 1 hour ago||
4chan archives are almost certainly relevant. But the advertisement poster for every single club night in Berlin probably is not - a representative sample is enough. More complete data is probably more useful, at least slightly, but it quickly runs into diminishing returns. The distinction is that certain 4chan posts have outsized influence (power law distribution of influence?), but club nights are all the same. It is conceivable that a certain poster could be important and not recognized as important in the moment, but not as likely.

And that's public announcements. Do we really need to archive more than a few of the "I'm in this city, look at me I'm so rich and beautiful" short videos?

bitwize 12 hours ago||
On the other hand, when modern archaeologists discover "Claudius has a small dick" graffiti on the side of some God-forsaken wall in Pompeii, they're fascinated. The presence of such graffiti adds color and texture to the civilization inhabited by Virgil and Ovid. What's just disposable background noise to us may provide context into how we lived and thought to our far-future descendants.
ElProlactin 12 hours ago||
> The presence of such graffiti adds color and texture to the civilization inhabited by Virgil and Ovid.

It does, but do you think that people at that time thought anywhere near as much about preserving their scribbles as we do?

I'd venture a guess that we've created more "content" since the advent of the internet than in all of human history prior, and most of it is stored on things that aren't even designed to last a human lifetime without failure.

The idea that we're going to save every piece of digital junk for posterity just isn't realistic or healthy.

> What's just disposable background noise to us may provide context into how we lived and thought to our far-future descendants.

You're right, but you're also assuming that they're going to care that much, and that we're going to survive that long.

queenkjuul 11 hours ago||
I think it isn't that we should save all of it, it's that we are not saving any of it. Random letters, notebooks, calendars, family photos, restaurant menus, etc have all proven useful to various historians, of which there will essentially be none from our era.
ElProlactin 11 hours ago||
> I think it isn't that we should save all of it, it's that we are not saving any of it. Random letters, notebooks, calendars, family photos, restaurant menus, etc have all proven useful to various historians, of which there will essentially be none from our era.

Well as far as digital letters, photos, menus, etc. are concerned, there's nothing stopping someone with the means and motivation from investing in a doomsday storage facility specifically designed to store these things for posterity. If people can do this for crypto they can do it for digital content.

As for physical items, do you know how much junk Americans have in storage units? The US self-storage industry generates over $40 billion in annual revenue. We're probably keeping more "stuff" in storage units where it has a chance of surviving a zombie apocalypse than at any point in human history.

queenkjuul 6 hours ago||
I mean, none of that stuff in storage units is human communication, though. Nobody prints emails or text convos or insta photos. Nobody is mailing each other letters. So none of that stuff is in storage units, though plenty of it from previous generations might be.

I don't necessarily think all this digital stuff is worth saving, i just see how it could be that we are essentially erasing our modern historical record by putting 100℅ of it in private data centers with no permanent records.

And then you see how plenty of contemporary digital media from the last 30-40 years is actually already lost to time just in our short timeframe. I don't think acknowledging that this could be detrimental is necessarily an argument for trying to preserve all of it. We, as a society, went very rapidly from preserving a lot of it to preserving none of it. I don't see the harm in thinking about the implications of that.

Nobody actively preserved letters and menus and postcards and photos, they just persisted by nature of being physical. Digital records only persist with continuous effort to preserve them. So the record for future historians will be highly curated and likely much more limited.

gaigalas 3 hours ago||
Perhaps we should let the content economy crash so that the big monsters eating it starve and die. A new content economy could be built on their carcasses instead.
khalic 2 hours ago||
It seems like a lot of techies should have chosen acting as a specialty, because I’ve never seen that much melodrama in one industry. FFS people, adapt, stop complaining
cookiengineer 5 hours ago||
I'm working on using the OpenZIM format to archive the web and to make the wikis seedable (and locally hostable for LLMs) so that the ongoing cat and mouse game anubis defense can stop.

My hope is that with the torrent protocol we can make the archived knowledge discoverable and seedable, because currently there's only the web archive and the kiwix download servers for archived contents. Both of them still are centralized servers that bear the cost of hosting those files.

- [1] https://github.com/cookiengineer/gozim

- [2] https://github.com/cookiengineer/zimdex

qudat 13 hours ago||
Funny as I just cancelled my Kagi sub to get the Gemini ai pro sub. The deal was too good to pass up
amatecha 12 hours ago||
The deal will be great for now, while they lure you in and get you to drop the competition -- then they will raise prices later.
satvikpendem 11 hours ago|||
Then you cancel and go to another provider, rinse and repeat. This is already what is happening with streaming platforms.
frabcus 3 hours ago||
Not after it consolidates, monopolises and enshittifies, no you can't.
AlexandrB 12 hours ago|||
This used to be called "dumping" or predatory pricing[1] and would be fined in the physical retail space. Too bad our regulators are asleep at the wheel.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

t-writescode 12 hours ago||
Kagi does have AI too, for what it’s worth. I found it pretty damn good, but I wish I could give them more money. I have a year subscription so I’m stuck without being able to give them *anything* until it’s done.
dylan604 12 hours ago||
Sign up for another account?
t-writescode 12 hours ago||
That is an option for sure, but a very disappointing one. And it comes with a meaningful danger of ending up with 2 subscriptions: one yearly and one monthly. They really, really need to finish their “pay as you go” system. I don’t know why it’s not done yet and there’s been no word about it to my knowledge.
dylan604 12 hours ago||
Maybe they should just enable a tip option? What do donations do to a company's tax liability and would it be worth their effort to enable something like that?
t-writescode 12 hours ago||
They already have a system for “prepaying”, but it can’t be used to put more credits into your account, they just sit there, waiting to be used by a future subscription.
monster_truck 3 hours ago||
I just don't care man. Did these people just log on yesterday or something? The MUDs and MMOs I grew up with disappeared. The IRC networks, and especially forums I learned so much from are gone (these were largely killed for something even worse than AI: commercial blogs!). Effectively every social network I've ever cared about has been ruined, failed, or sold. Even games have become bottom line chasing, live service slop that you never truly own.

If you want it so bad stop crying and make it, that's what I've been doing. It works a lot better than whatever this post and many of these comments are. There are dozens of us !

inigyou 1 hour ago||
Libera (formerly Freenode) and Rizon are still around, moderately lower in absolute numbers, drastically lower in percentage of total internet usage.
pjc50 3 hours ago|||
I remember from the MUD era there was a paper (possibly by Richard Bartle) on the "MUD lifecycle", and how they tended to last on average two years before the operators got bored / burned out / the community left / there was an Incident.
inigyou 1 hour ago||
Someone showed me something about Old-School Runescape recently and it struck me how quickly the game evolved. I played it in high school for two years at most. If you rewind or fast-forward in two year increments at a time, a lot about the game is barely recognizable each time. I think if you rewound two years from my play time, there was unlimited free trade, no grand exchange, and two or three fewer skills, and if you fast-forwarded two years, you got unlimited free trade again and the Evolution of Combat. It really puts in perspective how the people who make games are not planning the perfect game and then spending 10 years building it (except for Jon Blow) - they're flying by the seat of their pants. Apparently in 2001, the game's creators expected that nobody would ever reach the maximum level in any skill.
pjc50 37 minutes ago||
Oh yes, same for Warcraft, Ultima etc. Multiplayer games necessarily exist in a "dialogue" with their players. There's a tendency for players to optimize the fun out of games, as well. Someone discovers a dominant strategy, and then everyone feels they have to use it.

It is a bit risky, and I think the broader internet can make it worse. There's always the risk of a massive falling-out between players and developers which can sink the game. Latest example is probably the Love and Deepspace fiasco, but we've seen quite a few failed launches recently.

tommek4077 3 hours ago||
The old net is still there to a degree, but we live in pre-Alta Vista times again. It is hard to find. (I know as I run an old-school Forum and RPG-Game for more than 20 years now.)
zkmon 5 hours ago||
It happens when the deterministic precision was given away in return for the probabilistic guesses. It was one extreme until now (deterministic code), and we are swinging to the other extreme (probabilistic slop), but what the world wants could be somewhere in between. Some information does not need too much precision, while others do need precision.
germandiago 5 hours ago|
That is a nice project -- classifying it based on reliability: human-made, sources, etc. + score.

Maybe a job for an AI to do? :D

fragmede 1 hour ago|
yeah, but the article sucks. The title is Ting, but the author asks a thing in google's AI answer socks and then they spend a couple paragraphs pontificating about that then they participate some other bullshit like.. But here we are, talking about it. le sigh.
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