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Posted by apwheele 3 hours ago

License plate reader searches should require a warrant(andrewpwheeler.com)
310 points | 193 commentspage 2
thaumaturgy 1 hour ago|
There is another middle option that I would have liked to see the author discuss: requiring either a case number or a CAD ID, instead of a "search reason".

In my conversations with law enforcement (mostly at management level, chiefs of police), all of them have had reasonable-sounding objections to a warrant requirement for a search, but zero of them have been able to come up with a reason why a case-or-CAD ID requirement isn't workable. Generally, they argue that in practice obtaining a warrant can be too onerous in time sensitive situations, and can be harder to obtain than the public realizes. Two popular examples are in kidnappings (time sensitive) and missing persons (difficult to obtain).

A case number or CAD ID however simply requires that the details of either a public call for service or an active investigation are associated with the historical search. It closes the door on officers' hobby searching.

Andrew's blog post does note the problems with oversight, which also match my experience, so this isn't a perfect fix. But it will go further in conversations with law enforcement for people that are trying to thread the needle on making "safe" mass surveillance.

(I am personally opposed to mass surveillance in all its forms, but arguing only from that position pretty much immediately excludes me from policy discussions.)

wiseleo 2 hours ago||
Here's a case study of what happens when this information is public (it's linked as the "data-driven" series). This information should not exist unless the plate is flagged and the reason for that is sufficient to obtain a warrant. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/04/open-records-laws-reve...
smalltorch 2 hours ago||
Hotlists imply that actual search takes place the moment you pass one, so really, the illegal search happens before. Even if warrants were required to manually search.
Pxtl 1 hour ago||
There's a fundamental question: Is it legal for the government to blanket a public space in cameras and do whatever they want to the data that they collect from those cameras?

Is it legal for a private entity to do the same with their owned space (like a plaza or mall or office tower)?

Focusing on license-plate-readers seems like car-brain is causing the author to miss the forest for the trees.

smalltorch 2 hours ago||
Monetization of public data for private profit is the heart of my qualms.

Why should it be possible for my bits be scooped up and sold for profit against my will.

john-h-k 1 hour ago|
None of it is against your will. You have no obligation to own a car or drive. If you want to use the _shared_ resource that is public roads, funded by everyone, you have to agree to certain terms (eg a license, insurance).
smalltorch 43 minutes ago||
You act like it wasn't in place just five years ago.

It's a new paradigm. Flock is the first to blatently collect and sell public whereabouts for private gain.

Conflating this with insurance is a interesting take.

Also, the notion that I have a choice to not have a car is absurd. I'd starve. And, even if I could walk around are traverse my town with only a bike or walking, I'm still sucked into a harddrive against my will by these cameras.

axus 1 hour ago||
The FISA court is a similar compromise.
corsendonk 1 hour ago||
They're more than just license plate readers. Much more.
speak_plainly 2 hours ago||
A license plate is already publicly displayed information (and is in most jurisdictions not private property), and you're operating in a public space.

I know it's unpopular but I went from not supporting these sorts of systems to embracing them after seeing the positive effects in China.

For crimes that depend on anonymity, theft, assault, hit-and-runs, vandalism, illegal parking, etc., surveillance changes the calculation because the offender expects a higher or even a near certain chance of being identified/caught in China. I think this is a good thing. I also see no issue with someone breaking the law and receiving a ticket almost immediately.

With all systems, it comes down to the design. What sort of oversight is there, how long is footage stored, can it be used for specific crimes or expanded later, and are there mechanisms to correct false identification.

Done right, these systems work well. I would be happy to live in a society where street crime is rare enough that I can leave personal property anywhere, like a bike, without constantly worrying about theft. I think many fears about these systems come from dystopian science fiction and assume the worst possible implementation, rather than recognizing that technology can be designed with strong safeguards.

lokar 1 hour ago||
The idea that these are needed, and deployed to address a crime problem is false. For example, Irvine, CA has been one of the safest large cites in the US for decades.

Why did they need flock?

stickfigure 1 hour ago|||
Because the residents of Irvine want it to be even safer? Automobile thefts still happen there, crime isn't zero. Who are you to say "stop complaining about your car break-in, it's worse in other cities".

Reliable studies have shown that increasing the severity of punishment doesn't deter crime, but increasing the chance of being caught does. Cameras directly address the later. You'd have to be a total idiot to steal a car these days.

lokar 1 hour ago||
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john-h-k 1 hour ago|||
> For example, Irvine, CA has been one of the safest large cites in the US for decades. Why did they need flock?

Uhh, because getting safer is still better? Why the hell does the relative ranking matter?

edot 1 hour ago|||
Yeah China is not dystopian at all! They don’t keep millions of people in open air prisons, they don’t keep track of people’s compliance with the government, they don’t support brutal dictatorships, and they definitely don’t pass any laws that would enable them to use their surveillance technology to suppress democratic behavior!

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit_system

https://www.csis.org/analysis/old-friends-new-calculations-r...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hong_Kong_national_securi...

speak_plainly 1 hour ago||
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thewebguyd 2 hours ago||
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mlsu 2 hours ago||
There is a concept in safety called the hierarchy of hazard controls. There is a ranking of hazard mitigations from most to least effective.

1) remove the hazard

2) replace the hazard with something less hazardous

3) isolate the hazard (guards, cages etc)

4) administrative controls (procedures, training, warning, etc)

5) PPE

Implementing some kind of judicial review for these panopticons is something like 4) in the hierarchy. It would be a good thing to have, but we can go far further. Why do we need this shit? Oh what so someone’s car doesn’t get stolen a few times per year? I think my values are in line with the founding fathers and most Americans when I say I would gladly give up a little bit of safety to not have a spy camera trained on me 24/7.

I would like more removal and less procedural controls. The cops cannot abuse a system that does not exist.

iamleppert 2 hours ago|
I am for having it be completely open to the public, or require a warrant. The police should not have special privileges of information lifted directly from the public. Privacy cuts both ways.
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