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Posted by euthymiclabs 3 hours ago

"Solving a largely imaginary user goal"(unsung.aresluna.org)
37 points | 40 commentspage 2
grishka 2 hours ago|
Why does every website even need to provide its own toggle in the first place? How often do people use these, really?

(I don't get the "everything needs to support dark theme" thing either tbh)

teh_klev 48 minutes ago||
> I don't get the "everything needs to support dark theme" thing either tbh

I started my career when screens were black with text displayed using green/white/amber phosphor and was used to that. I never liked the bright white UIs when GUI based OS/front ends took over (before themes became a thing).

I find the wall of bright white with black/dark text tiring to look at. Collaborating with colleagues doing screen sharing where they don't use dark themes is really jarring.

It's almost an accessibility thing for me these days.

marcosdumay 2 hours ago|||
> Why does every website even need to provide its own toggle in the first place?

You can use the automatic value. Some people expect to change the colors of your site without changing their system colors, but you are free to just ignore them.

> How often do people use these, really?

Most normal people don't think about it. Depends on your audience.

But usually more people use them than know how to change their system colors.

> I don't get the "everything needs to support dark theme" thing either tbh

Again, most people don't think about that. Depends on your audience.

surgical_fire 1 hour ago||
I agree with you.

Except I don't see why anything needs to support a light theme.

Plont 40 minutes ago|||
Light text on a dark background can be illegible for people with astigmatism. (Somewhat depending on the axis of astigmatism vs. the direction of text.) Or if not illegible, at least a blurry, uncomfortable mess to read.

Astigmatism is very common, and not all astigmatism is corrected or correctable with glasses or contacts. Contacts, especially, are hit-and-miss for correcting astigmatism. Toric contacts, which are weighted to rotate into (hopefully) the correct position over the eye, are sometimes too uncomfortable or too unreliable (because they rotate out of position) compared to non-toric lenses. And besides, many people use their computer or phone without their glasses on/contacts in.

Additionally, dry eyes or other eye conditions can sometimes cause similar blurring issues with light text on dark backgrounds.

So, I ask that people please do include light mode options for accessibility. Even a half-assed implementation of light mode is better than none.

(If you insist on only supporting dark mode, low-contrast dark modes tend to be a bit better for astigmatism than AMOLED/true black dark modes. I suspect this might create problems for people who need high contrast in order to make out the text, however. I haven't looked into how well high contrast system modes function these days.)

hn111 52 minutes ago||||
I always switch to a light theme when the sun is shining on my screen
david422 1 hour ago||||
Accessibility plays a reason other than just taste.
Joker_vD 1 hour ago|||
Eh, I personally like the light theme better. But if others would decide that I too shall ever only perceive bright text on dark background, I guess I could live with that as well.
Plont 1 hour ago||
This is a terrible idea. It's just removing functionality in order to remove a button.

With this, there will suddenly be a bazillion frustrated users who want to force an exception to their timed dark/light mode cycle, but can't because this proposed system hides how to do that. And even if they look up how to do it, they have to either wait for a specific time of day to make their change, or they have to temporarily change their system settings in order to change the program/website-specific setting.

Meanwhile, people who don't care or don't understand will just leave it on the default and probably not even look at the settings page. And everyone is used to seeing "system default" as an option at this point, anyway.

Net effect: no benefit, and some users now upset.

Why change what isn't broken?

Lammy 2 hours ago||
Imagine thinking your website is important enough to have its own settings UI lol

> “Whatever the system says” is not just one extra option. It’s also one extra weird option. It doesn’t feel like the other two.

It's wrong to conflate the `prefer-color-scheme` media query with “What the system says”, meaning the OS-level dark/light option. For most people this is probably true, but I prefer sites that work this way because I use two Firefox extensions to set it globally or on a per-site basis regardless of what my OS is set to.

- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/toggle-dark-m...

- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/darkreader/

jrm4 1 hour ago||
Strongly believing it should only be two is symptomatic of the worst ideas in UX/UI. Pretty much one of those tiny steps toward "Idiocracy."

Do not hide what the machine is doing from the user in this way, this is how so many of the bad things happen.

watwut 2 hours ago||
As a user, I find the three "dark", "light", "auto" button situation way less complex then a toggle that keeps its state only if my choice does not align with system default.
warpech 2 hours ago||
Both Marcin and Lea are ignoring users who have automatic sunset-to-sunrise dark theme switching.

This is not a novelty but a built-in feature called “Auto” Appearance in MacOS, iOS, iPadOS. Similar feature exists in Android and KDE.

jmull 2 hours ago|
It’s in TFA, just a few sentences in.

Isn’t the article about how to best deal with the UI for letting the user indicate that the system should decide? Which covers your case.

warpech 2 hours ago||
Thanks, I missed that!

But still, the article continues to ignore that setting, doesn’t it?

The light/dark theme toggle is for a small fraction of the people who genuinely care about controlling the theme to be "right for them" and not just whatever.

jeffbee 2 hours ago||
Even in the 1990s, developers of the HID specification knew that the keyboard pictured at the bottom of the article was wrong. They wrote in the power management spec that interface devices should conditionally send wake events, and that a dedicated wake key was not necessary. Microsoft said:

"For example, a keyboard could include a special-purpose power management button (for example, “Power”) that, when pressed during a system sleeping state, generates a wake event. Alternatively, the button(s) on mice and other pointing devices could be used to trigger a wake event. "

Joker_vD 1 hour ago|
The worst part of those stupid "power management keys" was that they were put in place where Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break keys used to be for years. And of course they had to put the most disruptive button, Power Off, precisely where the only useful one of those three old buttons, Print Screen, is expected to be. Thank you guys so much, I must have turned off my PC by accident at least fifteen times when I meant to take a screenshot.

Why the hell were those buttons needed to be on the keyboard anyway? I swear it started with one of those imaginary "my Ctrl key is hard to reach, so I hold the spacebar instead..." scenarios.

_puk 1 hour ago||
Surely the toggle is "system setting is what I want" or the inverse?

That's a CSS @media not

Hizonner 2 hours ago||
Well, that's pretty damned moronic, is what that is.
asmnzxklopqw 2 hours ago|
Imagine the user confusion when he sets the interface in light mode and a couple of minutes later this changes automatically to dark mode because sun sets.
xp84 2 hours ago||
I think this is exactly the trap of imaginaryness the author is talking about.

For this scenario to unfold the following has to happen:

1. OS is set to auto mode 2. It's late afternoon 3. User finds they have (for some reason) in the past turned on the Website dark mode (presumably in the daytime) 4. User wants it light now.

This is a pretty tortured hypothetical though. I admit as an engineer, who understands that there's a light/dark signal being passed down, and there's an ability to override that signal, I appreciate separating the "should override" control the way a "3-way" switch allows.

But I have to admit, I cannot imagine a real person getting bit in any way by the implementation the author describes. 90% of people set their OS to the "mode" they want, whether it's full-time or sun-based, and that group never even needs to touch or look at this control (We do default to auto, right?). The other 10% are most likely here because they don't understand they can set this in the OS and they apparently want to toggle to the opposite mode. They might be thinking "I want this dark mode until morning" but "we" in the website actually can't really help them with that unless we start prying into what time it is there and build our own time-based mode. So the best we can do for that user is to shift them into "latched dark mode" and let them come back (as they've demonstrated a knowledge to do) when and if they want the 'lights' back on.

I'm the first to criticize UI designers who rob users of choice in the name of minimalism -- the Alan Dye approach, but this actually screams "Designer thought hard about the actual intent of the users" to me and I like it.

randallsquared 2 hours ago|||
You say that that this kind of thing is imaginary, but something like it must be happening when I repeatedly find that a given website/app is in the wrong mode, even though I feel like I've had to switch it before. This is not even a particularly uncommon experience when working with several apps or sites that have the choice, because it's not uncommon for one of those settings to be basically unreadable in some conditions or with font/color choices, etc.
Jtsummers 2 hours ago|||
For reasons (I work for one company, but our work is for both ourselves and sometimes in partnership with others), I often end up with two (or more) instances of certain sites and apps (like two organizational Gitlab instances). To make my life easier, I pick one to be dark and one to be light by default so I can tell at a glance "Ah, this is my corp version, and this other is for some customer". My system also uses automatic dark/light switching.

If I'm setting this up during the day, when I normally work, those external sites would easily end up with the "auto" behavior by this very poor design in the blog, when that is not my actual intent. This would result in me having to set it twice (the second time in the evening) to have my desired behavior which is a nuisance. The explicit option is better here, not whatever this silliness is in the article. [0]

At least I've read this article so sites and apps using this stupid option wouldn't be too big of a surprise to me, I'd hate to have to explain this to other people who haven't read it though. Principle of least surprise is a good thing, not something to deliberately work against like this author wants.

EDIT:

[0] Actually, this demonstrates a crucial flaw in the system's design. If I want to set the current default as the permanent setting, I have to wait until a particular time of day to do so. That's even worse than I'd previously realized. You can only set permanent light in the evening (or by changing your OS/browser settings, changing the site, and then changing OS/browser back). You can only set permanent dark during the day (without that same stupid exercise).

This is a terrible design concept.

BalinKing 1 hour ago||
But this means you're "abusing" dark/light mode to signal unrelated information. If some visual customization (theme, font size, etc.) happens to allow you to do something like that, then of course more power to you, but I don't think it has any relevance to the design of the thing itself. It just seems unreasonable to me to expect designers to consider all the ways their designs could do double-duty for any given user (cf. "every change breaks someone's workflow").
Jtsummers 1 hour ago|||
I was just supplying one reason for changing it, other people may just prefer some particular site or application in light mode versus dark (and vice versa) instead of managing multiple instances of the same thing like I am. Suppose you're editing documents and your word processor has dark mode, but you want it to always be in light mode. With the described control in the article you would have to change the behavior in the evening, specifically, to get it to stay in light mode permanently (or change your system settings to be opposite your normal settings, switch it to light, and then switch your system settings back).

There is no way any one with any common sense can think that this two-choice option (one is magic, one does what you would expect; which is which depends on time of day for many users) is better than a three-choice option where each choice does exactly what you'd expect.

Plont 26 minutes ago|||
But this change breaks functionality for some people, without correspondingly improving anything for others. So what's the point?

In my experience, software that is designed to work only for the most average user ends up feeling terrible for most everybody, because most people deviate from the average in one way or another, at one time or another.

It feels especially bad when the software makes assumptions about what the user wants, to the point of including a button that doesn't always do the same thing when pressed, and which doesn't even tell the user it doesn't always do the same thing when pressed.

Just look at all the complaints Microsoft gets for the way Windows constantly reverts or ignores user settings.

Or the way it feels to google a very specific set of search terms, only to receive back 20 completely irrelevant listicles that answer a statistically more likely question you didn't ask.

Joker_vD 1 hour ago||
There are actually websites like that. It's... mostly fine, frankly, although a bit jarring.
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