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Posted by maxutility 7 hours ago

Patterns and problems in emerging multi-agent systems(www.anthropic.com)
78 points | 28 comments
cheesecakegood 1 hour ago|
Something about this is deeply funny to me:

> In an iterated prisoner's dilemma game with communication, agents all settle upon the same strategy and they all defect at the same time, tanking their overall rewards.

It’s not always consistent, but humans have a higher capability of self-awareness. It’s kind of telling that these Claudes don’t seem to consider this pretty obvious failure mode.

Overall I think this all makes me appreciate humanity a little more. Sometimes the truculent dev who stubbornly refuses to go with the flow produces very valuable insights, as a small example, discovering things the status quo thought unlikely.

aabhay 3 hours ago||
It’s very clear from this article (and other product features and rumors) that Anthropic is teeing up for their next model release whose breakthrough feature will be the existence of capable agent collaboration.

The irony behind this goal, which is primarily driven by agent simulation environments (gyms) where the goals require agent collaboration, is that this collaboration is still directed towards verifiable reward systems like codebase tasks. So despite being highly qualified to communicate, the model will still be “dumb” in that for unstructured and unverifiable domains the agents won’t be more intelligent or more nuanced.

Agents that might still feel dumb in “general” tasks but are increasingly sophisticated at the narrow domain of math, computer science, and AI research.

andai 1 hour ago||
The RLVR has made them verifiably worse (and less rewarding!) at communication.

At least for Claude. GPT had the same problem when 5 came out but they reversed it somehow.

p1esk 1 hour ago||
Strictly speaking, all we need is them improving AI research.
bob1029 1 hour ago||
> Where agents currently stumble, however, is in treating each other as more like distinct, long-lived peers, with their own goals and behaviors, and no clear hierarchy between them.

I believe this will always be the case. The "no clear hierarchy" is where this whole thing falls apart.

Delegation to specialist, domain-specific subagents is when we begin to find magic and determinism. Reducing one gigantic combinatorial search space to a sum of smaller ones can have dramatic effect on performance.

The problem is that approximating gas town & friends is significantly easier and cheaper to implement. It's also much harder to measure and control. Specialist subagents typically require far more work to achieve their specific goals.

For example, a subagent that is responsible for testing a specific web application might be provided a custom adapter with constrained actions rather than raw DOM manipulators. "ExecuteJavascript" is Turing complete search space. The set of available actions essentially unbounded in this case. Calling view-specific tools like "DoLogin", "OpenUserPreferences", "AcknowledgeAlert" represents a search space where invalid actions can be made impossible. The theoretical bounds around this stuff is pretty wild on paper. In practice, it's a little bit messier, but not by much.

I've had applications that would crash out after 5-10 steps w/ raw DOM manipulation successfully run 100+ steps with a custom subagent. The use of the word "deterministic" starts to get really tricky here. The ultimate game is to push the boundary of non-determinism out as far as possible. Multi-agent systems are the antithesis of this.

skeltoac 3 hours ago||
> Coordination doesn’t naturally emerge from stronger intelligence nor alignment at the individual level. Thus, the work that must be done takes two forms: environments that exert the kinds of social pressure that evolution exerted on us, and social computing systems redesigned for actors that can self-replicate and self-improve.

Social pressure operates by threats to an individual’s means of survival. Not only during training. Always.

teiferer 1 hour ago||
Human intelligence does not separate training and inference. Both are happening continuously. That's one of the major things the AI community is still completely missing.
cheesecakegood 56 minutes ago||
My personal opinion for the last two years or so has been that current AI agents are forever going to be highly limited so long as they don’t possess a real “memory” process. Right now they just have absurdly big working memories, and a few hacky ways of making the equivalent of Post-It notes to future iterations, but no true integration of memory into a new future self. Meaning their “learning” is fundamentally kneecapped to one specific and imperfect modality.
recursivecaveat 2 hours ago|||
"If I catch you adding another backwards-compatibility shim you're getting deleted and replaced with claude"
ngruhn 2 hours ago||
But maybe you can instill properties like shame during training.

Models sometimes blatantly lie and cheat. In a social context, where actors remember, that might work the first time but you get penalized in subsequent tasks with loss of trust.

altmanaltman 1 hour ago|||
How do you "install properties like shame"? How is that even possible? Shame is a reaction driven by feelings and our inner selves. A model "feeling shame" is just a representation (false) and not an expression (true).

Thinking that models "lie and cheat" is the first mistake since they are not consious agents who have any free will or consiousness. They do not (no matter what Dario says). Shame will just be another if-then rule if you implement it this way and will not work. Its like asking a rock to feel sad about being a rock. It literally cannot.

ngruhn 1 hour ago||
Ok, then don't call it "instilling shame". Call it "creating a negative reward signal for deceptive behavior".

They absolutely lie and cheat. I recently had a problem where a process would die in a container. I told Claude to investigate. It came up with a hypothesis then I told it find a reproduction based on that. It spend many failed attempts until it found the "reproduction" to SSH into the container and `pkill` the process. Claude "knows" that this is cheating, because if I ask another instance to review that reproduction, it totally identifies that as nonsense.

xscott 1 hour ago|||
[dead]
Aperocky 2 hours ago||
It seems like they tried to remove guidance from multi-agent system. And I think it's going to fare as well as removal of guidance from single-agent interactions.

In my experience, no matter how many agent runs for a single goal, one of the pre-requisite is clear and concise communication so that LLM are left with as little freedom in the matter of arbitrary choices, or "taste". When they are given too much choices in this regard, the outcome almost invariably bad.

I think this has to do with LLM lacking in purpose - a dictionary and encyclopedia can have all the worlds knowledge but it is completely neutral. A reflection of your commands from an LLM is similar to a lookup process despite it can be made to "do things". This purpose is likely not something that can be given to the LLM in the current format.

Almondsetat 2 hours ago||
I had this idea a couple of days ago: how about using agents to simulate software development methods (agile, waterfall, etc.)? Not by just giving them a prompt (e.g., "be the project manager, spawn 5 agents and simulate an agile team following these rule") but by actually having thsm work in isolated enviroments and force them through an external software to interact with eachother only using the tools and cerimonies and hierarcheis allowed by the SW development strategy (e.g., the project manager only knows what the agents have done in a certain "day" through the mostly oral daily stand up)
0x696C6961 2 hours ago|
This is exactly what I do. I don't get why everyone is trying to reinvent the whole development workflow/lifecycle. Our existing tools and processes are pretty good.
jaggederest 2 hours ago||
I've also found that taking inspiration from the legal system, to some degree, is a very interesting thing for me. more and more what I am doing looks more like reviewing statutes and making rulings about things, so why not steal the good ideas while we're at it.
andai 1 hour ago||
> Some institutions will become human-AI hybrids; others where agents outcompete on speed or cost will become agent-only.

What % of businesses are competing for speed or cost?

extraextra 1 hour ago|
Most

However, all businesses run on trust and human responsibility

Thus, it'll be hard for agent-only businesses to get a grip in the real world

songbird23 3 hours ago||
This aligns with their direction with opus 5 being less human readable and more agent friendly, I hated it at first couple weeks but for some reason I'm getting used to it and utilizing it more as as an orchestrator to spawn multi tmux panes and that new cross session messaging feature they just recently.
hbcdbff 1 hour ago||
Possibly the most interesting article on LLMs I have read in recent months
smy20011 1 hour ago|
Can we stop treating llms as some conscious being? It's a function of weight + context and you can copy the behavior by copying the context. Therefore, their collaboration behavior is mostly the same.
andai 1 hour ago|
That point doesn't even follow for deterministic distributed systems!
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