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Posted by nichochar 2 days ago

Being ambitious and being a dad(nicholascharriere.com)
723 points | 540 commentspage 5
orsenthil 2 hours ago|
The problem with that article is, it defines greatness with people who are popular on the Internet or have had a popular success.

For great parents, if you can think on your own, don't look further than your own parents. Did they something right.

ParallelThread 3 hours ago||
I have a relatively good stable job, working in tech. When I came across generative AI and how it could be used to solve difficult math problems and materialize amazing codebases, the feeling of awe makes me want to understand the magic. I am contemplating choosing between changing my career and being in my stable job, raising my kids. Of course, I am probably unqualified for frontier labs, where I want to work on models. Ambition seems to have gotten a hold off me and won't let me go.
jonners00 9 hours ago||
I once bumped into a couple of very high profile VCs sitting outside a coffee shop. Somehow the conversation got round to the fact that we were potty training our 12-month-old. One of the VCs told me their two kids, 2 and 3 years old, weren't yet out of nappies, just used pull-ups, because there hadn't been time to potty train them. There are reasons why this could have been legit (failed attempts, developmentally challenged children, etc.) but it was delivered as a kind of admonishment that I was involved in potty-training at all (even though their fund hadn't invested in my business or even been pitched).

It really depressed me at the time, realising there was a class of entrepreneurs and backers who were genuinely stop-at-nothing, even if it meant their three-year-old at day care was wondering why he was the only nappy-wearer, and carrying that subliminally into later life.

What I learnt from that and host of other experiences over time was that a young family and running a venture-backed, high-growth trajectory business aren't very compatible, but...

What I've also learned is that your first venture's going to be imperfectly executed anyway, so get the learnings out of the way anyway, with kids in the picture, then go again when the kids are school-age, and hope they get to enjoy the fruits of venture number two as teenagers.

Also, I never saw consistency from the people who put venture before family. They'd be buying shots for young staff at 11.00 at night on a week night, checking their crypto-balance continously, micro-managing, taking unnecessary business trips, etc. There are some absolute time-management machines out there, who never seem to waste a moment of their working days (I know two, and they both combined successful startups and young families), but in reality everyone needs some downtime/respite and family time is a better restorative than anything else except pure rest.

On that point, there's the famous adage, 'Startup, sleep, parenthood. Pick any two.' I picked startup and parenthood. Sleep deprivation means I look 10 years older than I am, but no regrets.

Finally, I think kids give you a second wave of competitive determination after your initial ambition wanes. Problematic investors, cheating competitors, over-demanding enterprise customers, careless execs, etc. could leave a lone individual feeling sorry for themselves, and defeatist. It's amazing how creative and determined one becomes when it feels like these different personas are causing setbacks that, rathervthan just interfering with your personal ambitions, might be stealing your kids' future opportunities and financial security.

usrme 5 hours ago|
I've seen something similar with regards to neglecting child development, but instead of nappies, they're just not fed properly. People who have more disposable income than I could imagine, but are strapped for time, feed their children the simplest, most low effort food imaginable. Think a cheeseburger from McDonald's, plain pasta or bread, frosted flakes, etc. Their excuse is that their child won't eat anything else, but more often than not it's a matter of getting them accustomed with other foods, which of course takes time and effort.

I'm getting to the point where I too feel like I most likely won't be noteworthy in any professional sense (i.e. a name known across the industry), but at moments like that I take solace in the fact I'm taking time to spend with my son, learn alongside him, and provide him a life that I never had in so many other ways.

akchin 15 hours ago||
This resonates a lot with how I felt while building our company. My kids were born during the early days of our startup and it was pretty much what he described- work and being a dad. Thankfully the startup was pretty successful and I made a good amount of money that’s allowed me the luxury of not having to work when the older one was 10. I am really enjoying not working and being a full time dad :-)
ronbenton 5 hours ago||
Hits hard. I know this is wrong, but I often find myself resentful when I see colleagues burning the midnight oil (or otherwise putting in time that I no longer have) in service of career progression.

I think the author is spot on about ruthlessly optimizing the time you do have, though. That seems to be the only way to keep up.

logical_ferry1 4 hours ago|
> I often find myself resentful when I see colleagues burning the midnight oil

I don't care, especially with AI. I just let it do all the work and I take credit. Plus career progression after a certain point is useless - more responsibilities for smaller increases in paycheck. I found that being a senior developer is the sweet spot for me - others have to think about the product and requirements and communicate and I just sit autistically in the corner and ship at my own pace.

alkonaut 2 hours ago||
This guy equates ”ambition” with ”career ambition”. Getting children means splitting your ambition between work and family. And family always comes first. There are no excuses for anyone, no matter how ”ambitious” or entrepreneurial, to work a 50 hour week if you have young kids at home.
dsauerbrun 2 hours ago|
That's a pretty narrow viewpoint. I could see many examples where it's better to work than focus on your kids... At least for society. Leader of a country comes to mind as one of those jobs
dalyons 17 hours ago||
thank you for this, very well written, and rings true.

I will say for me this is the root contradiction:

> I do not believe the quality time theory. I firmly believe in maximizing the quantity of time spent with them; there are no diminishing returns for them on that front.

If you believe that to be the most true statement, then it leads to the conclusion that you should work as little as possible to spend as most time with them, up to and including not working at all. The ambition to be kidmaxxing, if you will. This is incompatible with career ambition obviously.

I guess i'm just sharing the same frustration but with a stronger conclusion - it seems fundamentally contradictory to be ambitious in both, at least at young ages. Seems like we're fooling ourselves if we think you can, we're compromising on one aspect at least.

Calazon 17 hours ago||
Ultimately any two ambitions will compete with each other for finite time and energy. (Assuming each ambition benefits from more time and energy being spent on it, which is usually the case.)

You can be reasonably successful in multiple areas, but you can't max them all, you have to compromise somehow.

dalyons 16 hours ago||
i agree. But i read the blog post as the author trying to escape having to compromise. Which, as we seemingly both think, is not possible.
Calazon 10 hours ago||
I read the post as the author acknowledging the compromise, expressing frustration about it, and determining to live on the pareto frontier with his strategy of focus and discipline and so on. Sacrificing other things in order to achieve both ambitions at a high level (though not maximizing either one).
alansaber 11 hours ago||
"Maximising time within reason" is probably a better construction. As usual if you follow these arguments to their absolute meaning they become ridiculous
dalyons 11 hours ago||
But what’s “within reason”? Right now I have an unlimited list of ambitions of things to do with my kids. Traveling, sports, skiing, mountain biking, surfing, camping, building, electronics, etc etc… there are not enough hours in a year to do just those with zero paid work. Is that ridiculous, assuming I can afford to do so?
alansaber 11 hours ago||
"Define nuance" I dunno, it depends on all of the factors that go into your life. There might be a lower level construction of the logical argument but it eludes me and begins to feel arbitrary
jimmar 2 hours ago||
I like the sentiment from Hitchens that we choose our regrets. Being an absent father was not something I was willing to regret. I know it has cost me some degree of earning potential and career progression. I wouldn't change anything.
TheAlchemist 15 hours ago||
I believe parents should definitely aim for both.

If you have kids and you prioritize your career to the point you never see your kids, and you will have huge and legitimate regrets later in life. Especially if you don't achieve Jobs / Musk level of financial success. That's pretty common knowledge.

But the opposite is also true. As parents, we're always examples for our kids, for better or worse. Do we want our kids to see us abandon our dreams 'because of them' or do we want them to see their parents showing them how to go after their dreams, because that's what life is about ?

scorpioxy 15 hours ago|
The middle way, perhaps? What "dreams" are more important than having a strong connection with your kids? Not only are the regrets that will come later in life huge and legitimate, they would also be irreversible. But, assuming you're in relatively good health midlife, you can always attempt to build the 5 startups that will almost definitely fail. Just my opinion of course.
TheAlchemist 15 hours ago||
That's what I'm saying, maybe not with right words then.

Strong connections with kids are the most important thing, but it cannot be the only one. It wouldn't end great neither for both parties.

scorpioxy 13 hours ago||
Ah, I may have misunderstood your comment. I thought you were leaning more towards the "dream" part. But so my comment also meant to say that the definition of ambition and success changed after becoming a parent. I know I won't be curing cancer in my lifetime and so what thing is really important that I have to sacrifice time with my children for? To me, being the founder of the next failed facebook for cats is just not it.

Note that I am not talking about earning a living and thus necessarily sacrificing time doing that and showing your kids that sometimes you have to work hard to survive in a decent way. I am talking about the parents who outsource their children to childcare to work to pay off the loan on their third car and newest iphone and tell you that they have no choice.

xyzelement 3 hours ago|
I was thinking lately how lucky I am to have gotten good guidance from my parents and grandparents that oriented me well to life and work. I think this is / used to be more commonly understood or maybe just seems that way.

Ambition and drive are important but there's an important "so what" there as well. Am I aimlessly ambitious or am I ambitious for the sake of being able to support my family and make a significant impact on the world? If you are lucky enough to have the second orientation then I think there's less conflict between these things.

I have plenty to tech and finance friends who are successful and in our mid 40s, and unfortunately for those who neglected to have the family side of the equation, the shine is wearing off. What's the point of making the next level promotion and making the next 200k pay bump when what you do with it is come back to your apartment by yourself? Sure it's more comfortable and could still be fun to be ambitious and successful but it's lacking the goal piece.

The other half of my friends have family and then the financial etc success feeds directly into it. Can you give your family a good home, a good education, good experiences? It's easier for me to call a "success" a friend with a 4 bedroom house with 3 kids on it, than one with a Manhattan penthouse with no kids in it, even if the homes cost the same. It's just a different dimension.

The other thing is - making the world a better place for the future. The kids you raise and the work you achieve both feed into that. And also the future you are building is something that will benefit your kids - so all the things are aligned.

Then it becomes a "simple" balance - what's the thing that maximizes what I actually want to achieve. I want to be a good father and that takes both being with the kids, and working to make money - and also to set a good example for them of what work looks like. So yes in a simple sense you become less productive because you are going to work fewer hours, but I don't feel less productive in the grand total of life because all the things I am doing across work and family add up to what I want to accomplish.

I am curiosit - I bet many people will read this and think "of course, I feel the same way and what other way to feel is there" and others will say "I disagree at the root" which goes back to this being something with how your family raised you and the perspective you have from it.

ramesh31 3 hours ago|
I think men in this day and age have been hoodwinked just as much as women when it comes to the career vs. family debate. For a man there is truly nothing more important in life than having a family and providing for them. It is what we are evolutionarily tuned towards and anything short of it will leave you empty and hollow. There's a desperate longing for fulfillment and meaning among our generation that a lifetime of being told "having kids = dead dreams" has left us confused and lost as to how to achieve. But having them makes it crystal clear what you were put on this earth to do, and nothing comes close in the realm of professional success to that feeling of meaning and purpose.
xyzelement 3 hours ago||
Yup. And would you agree that being sufficiently "indoctrinated" into the right thinking by your own parents and grandparents is the only way through?
ramesh31 2 hours ago||
>And would you agree that being sufficiently "indoctrinated" into the right thinking by your own parents and grandparents is the only way through?

Maybe it is. But there's still something to be said for breaking out of that and trying to see your own way in the world. Until it beats you back down and biology takes over and you start to understand life. Kids can only be taught so much; they have to burn their finger on that stove in their own way and time. Millenials still had that connection to and context of the old world that the younger generations now do not; (my wife and I have expressed that we want the life our grandparents had together, to the bewilderment of our Boomer/GenX parents), so maybe we have a bit of leg up in that regard. But I think the ones who didn't will come around naturally as well as the social media driven hustle culture burns itself out.

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