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Posted by Narishma 7 hours ago

A 3rd World Embedded Engineer Responds to "RISC-V They Should Have Known Better"(rvembedded.com)
310 points | 165 commentspage 4
pranav_tech26 5 hours ago|
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epolanski 6 hours ago||
The author of the article just got a fan.

Some serious stuff he builds on top of those chips.

topspin 4 hours ago||
Beautiful.

I read the "They Should Have Known Better" article and forgot it. I've seen this before. I know it's hot air and does not matter, and I can't afford to worry about things that don't matter.

When I say I've seen this before, I'm talking about ancient history: controversies so old and so laughable that they've been forgotten. When, for example, AMD handed the world AMD64/X86_64, the same things were said: fragmentation, legacy+flawed ISA, etc. That has not aged well, and "They Should Have Known Better" won't either.

The "fragmentation" argument has no merit. The jumble of extension names and profiles in RISC-V are, in fact, direct evidence that RISC-V is succeeding: it's the RISC-V ecosystem aggressively, collaboratively and successfully tackling pain points and solving them. This is what RISC-V is supposed to be doing, and it's doing it, and empires are being built on it.

Take this part: "The existence of CLIC and various proprietary 'fast IRQ' / auto-stacking extensions is an additional indictment."

CLIC is miraculous. It's an advanced embedded interrupt controller, and it's wonderful: it brings the equivalent of ARM's NVIC to RISC-V, except better. You can implement an extremely efficient scheduler that guarantees deadlock-free concurrency: bare-metal, real-time, hardware-accelerated "Fearless Concurrency," on an MCU with no RTOS![1] Its appeal is so great that, despite still being a draft spec, the leading RISC-V MCU designers are adopting it. Espressif's ESP32-S31 has it, for example. The chaotic emergence of this awesome thing is what is condemned as an "indictment."

Speaking of ESP32-S31, it's going to be a monster when silicon becomes available in quantity. This RV Embedded writing mentions MMUs a lot. Guess what? The S31 has an Sv32 MMU. It can run Linux. Not μClinux. Real Linux. It's already been done twice (that I know of) on the Espressif eval boards. People like Armstrong Subero are going to change the world with it.

That's the froth of RISC-V. The ground is shaking, and the peanut gallery of ISA wizards has no power over it. In a few years, after RISC-V has lain waste to our world of proprietary ISAs and Western IP regime rent seeking, "They Should Have Known Better" will look as silly to everyone as it already looks to me.

[1] https://rtic.rs/2/book/en/

Lagoon3384_SWE 5 hours ago||
Just an unlucky spawn point. We need to focus on ourselves. "oh no shipping to some remote island is expensive compared to NYC that has next day free on everything" Well, duh.
MBCook 5 hours ago||
So “you were born somewhere ‘unlucky’, that’s how it goes, sucks to be you”.

Is that really your take?

gertop 4 hours ago|||
It's a distasteful take to be sure. But, what is GP supposed to do?

Frankly I'd rather be told that than the other common but tired SV-resident take of "just hustle, bro, stop sleeping, hustle hustle hustle. Learn to code, take loans from friends and family. Doesn't matter that you're born in a shithole, I was born in a median family myself, we only had one car and we rented our house!!! Just gotta work for it, everybody can achieve it. Those who don't, are clearly not working hard enough."

justsomehnguy 2 hours ago||
> But, what is GP supposed to do?

Don't be a smug asshole? Oh, sorry, that's for someone else.

Lagoon3384_SWE 5 hours ago|||
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soulofmischief 5 hours ago||
Naïve take. We live in a global neoliberal economy, our standards of living are the direct result of introducing scarcity and other forms of exploitation elsewhere while keeping domestic populations largely unaware of how unfair their position is. There is no ethical basis to simply "focus on ourselves" here. We must do the exact opposite.
mohamedkoubaa 5 hours ago|||
Appeals to an ethical basis don't work on everyone
roughly 5 hours ago||
Let’s take the rationalist approach, then: does the author of this blog post seem like someone who could contribute reasonably to humanity’s future? Does it seem like we might be doing ourselves a disservice by ignoring them, and those like them?

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”

― Stephen Jay Gould

Edit: y’all really don’t like being told you should care about other people, huh?

mohamedkoubaa 3 hours ago||
I'm on your side, the comment I was replying to seemed to assume that the gp commentor was motivated by or at least interested in ethics.
roughly 3 hours ago||
Yeah, I saw that, I wasn’t taking a shot at you.
Lagoon3384_SWE 5 hours ago|||
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trueno 5 hours ago||
yo this is actually some really fire reading. i had to read it twice then go back and read the original that he's responding to here. i feel full of wonder right now seeing people who are this deep into compsci debating merits in the marketplace of ideas, there's just so much going on globally with computing that i never even get to see. super fascinating to read about the different constraints at play here even the global socioeconomic ones and how they apply to the chip world in general. it sounds like risc-v's real play is democratizing access to the entire embedded stack
999900000999 3 hours ago|
>He derives the case for the chip and then spends the rest of the article annoyed that the chip exists.

>This is almost satirical.

That's all that needs to be said.

It's like comparing Unity and Godot. Unity is better in every single way but one, you have to license it from a very poorly ran company.

You don't "own" your games, they ship with black box spyware. The pricing for using it can change from day to day.

I swear the Unity C level employs a Magic 8 Ball and consults it for key management decisions.

If you need to edit the Unity Engine source code your looking at a secret additional licensing fee which is certainly unaffordable for hobbyist and most indies.

Vs Godot which is completely free under the MIT license.

Everything about the above can be said for ARM as well.

RISC-V is free for everyone to play with. If you think it sucks you can always fork it and jerryrig it to work on existing hardware.

If you have money you can even get custom hardware for your forked RISC-V.

I very much enjoyed reading this article, I'm optimistic in seeing what OPs students come up with. This is life changing technology that's essentially available to all.

rowanG077 3 hours ago|
I'm not a professional game maker. But having used unity in anger in the past I found Godot a breath of fresh air. What unity really wins with is the unity asset store.
camel-cdr 1 hour ago||
Which may actually be a good analogy. One thing I've seen rarely discussed is existing expertise/experiance, existing varification/tooling and existing quality reference implementations. Arm wins in all of the above over RISC-V currently, if you have the money to license from/work with Arm.