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Posted by ropbear 1 day ago

Anthropic's ‘watermark’ text adulteration in Claude is a perversion of writing(daringfireball.net)
748 points | 652 commentspage 10
mickdarling 5 hours ago|
Watermarks are context poisoning.
Twey 12 hours ago||
People are very upset, especially in the arts, that Anthropic is changing the text to watermark it, but isn't that missing the point a little bit? They're not changing _your_ text whose every word you've carefully chosen for the exact effect, they're changing text that they're generating, i.e. text you've already chosen to give up control over. LLMs can't understand emotional nuance anyway.

The phrasing of the announcement implying that phrasing and diction don't change the meaning of text is insultingly dismissive of the whole field of literature, and I can see why people might take it as an afront, but the actual technology shouldn't have a negative impact as far as I can see. It seems to me that this one is more of a PR problem than something with real-world impact.

pikuseru 5 hours ago||
If you don’t like it don’t use it
lluisantoni 10 hours ago||
Text watermarking is another EU rule made without real world input. The Union is stuck on major economic crises (electricity prices for instance) because nobody can agree on anything. However, the bureaucracy forces tech into a privacy nightmare. Brussels cannot bring together its own members but it loves pretending it can govern the internet.
bramhaag 10 hours ago||
> Text watermarking is another EU rule made without real world input.

Except for the input of the hundreds of stakeholders they consulted, Anthropic included [1]?

> The Union is stuck on major economic crises (electricity prices for instance) because nobody can agree on anything.

That sure seems relevant for the implementation of AI watermarking...

> However, the bureaucracy forces tech into a privacy nightmare.

No, this transparency allows consumers to more easily detect AI generated content.

[1] https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/code-pract...

einpoklum 10 hours ago||
> (electricity prices for instance) because nobody can agree on anything.

I would say that's more like because the US has arranged for Europe's fossil fuel energy sources to be disrupted or cut off:

* Libya - NATO made a pig's breakfast of that, it's a failed state now.

* Iran - transitive sanctions, because why not prevent non-US states from trading with each other.

* Russia (& Kazahkhstan) - The US (with or without Ukranian involvement) bombed the NordStream pipeline(s), led the EU into the proxy war in Ukraine and a sanctions regime against Russia. Kazakh oil goes to Europe through Russia.

* Gulf states - until recently, possible but not very convenient ; since Feburary of this year, the war on Iran messed that up badly too.

the US is the winner here not just geo-politically, but also as an oil exporter, with the EU now depending on purchasing US-exported oil.

Lumich 5 hours ago||
Spot on. Also, in 2003, the war on Iraq, still occupied. And the proxy war on Syria (stifling an unwelcome pipeline project). European “leaders” pretend to not comprehend how they're being screwed. Stockholm syndrome. Populations don't understand, propaganda (“free press”) working correctly.
einpoklum 2 hours ago||
It's very weird looking in from the outside. I mean, sure, the US is the dominant power and everything, so things like Iraq and Iran could be construed as just collateral damage from their imperial maneuvers. But it has just piled on, more and more, and even when they are hit right in the face with the massive bombing of NordStream, still practically nobody tries to draw any sort of line.

Reminds me a bit of that 'Yes Prime Minister' sketch about nuclear deterrant, when the skeptical conversant asks the PM: "So what is the last resort, Picadilli?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE

Lumich 18 minutes ago||
« right in the face » — It's mainly Germany that's hit right in the face and where the Stockholm syndrome applies most closely. If we look at our dear neighbours, then we can see that some of them stand to profit from the Nord Stream bombings. Poland, of course, but also the honorable Norway (have a lot of gas) or the Netherlands (have the most important port). These two also happen to be more closely allied and aligned with the (F)UK/US complex, not directly “Five Eyes” (Anglo only), but “Nine Eyes” (plus France and Denmark). The war had been actively prepared since at least 2014 (military “#TrainToWin” etc), so there was enough time for scheming and dealing.

Guilt with a corollary of subservience to “Western values” having become the predominant ideology in Germany, strategic shortsightedness and failure to properly “relaunch” after 1990, also the occasional murder of more “promising” members of the political spectrum (sans doute at the hands of our dear “friends”), brain drain to the U.S., catastrophic “investments” like Chrysler or U.S. telcom, and barely anything of it ever raised to the threshold of public debate and intelligent reflection : a lot of things combine to explain the dismal state of affairs in modern Germany.

It cannot be ruled out that the German gov was complicit in the bombings; not wilfully, but passively, like someone too weak to resist for lack of self-esteem. Like chancellor Scholz on Feb 7, 2022, at the White House press conference where Biden threatened the pipeline:

▪ “If Russia invades, that means tanks and troops crossing the border of Ukraine, again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2, we will bring an end to it.” ▫ “But how will you do that, exactly, since the project is within Germany’s control?” ▪ “We will… I promise you we will be able to do it.”

There was no reaction from Scholz. Just nothing. By the way, could be I'm wrong, but that part of the press conference seemed scripted/scheduled to me. Not the exact words, but the contents.

flufluflufluffy 11 hours ago||
There is no very best token to choose at each decision point. It is context dependent and subjective.
1vuio0pswjnm7 3 hours ago||
"My writing is my work, and Anthropic's current strategy is aggressively writer-hostile."
kergonath 7 hours ago||
A lot of that rant is nonsense. Is Gruber also outraged that a RNG is already involved in everything LLM produce with a non-zero temperature? Surely it already leads to widespread use of “non-optimal words”. Simply the idea that there is a single optimal choice, down to every single word, to convey a meaning and anything straying from that is adulteration is laughable. It’s very difficult to take seriously an argument based on this kind of foundation.

He had a very similar rant a couple of days ago when he somehow thought that they would use invisible characters. It’s just as useless.

fbrncci 13 hours ago||
Then then don’t use Claude ? What’s wrong with all these people getting vendor locked in.
GaryBluto 12 hours ago||
I wonder if this watermarking system to lead to an increase in tortured phrases, believed to be caused by plagiarism evasion tools that change random words to applicable synonyms.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2107.06751

Alpha3031 11 hours ago|
Seems unlikely unless Anthropic invented a time machine, given that the phenomenon predated Claude 1 by two years, and their stated introduction of watermarking (August 2) by 5.
GaryBluto 11 hours ago||
I see how that was confusingly written. I'm not suggesting Anthropic are somehow retroactively causing it, just wondering if it could create a similar effect.
Alpha3031 11 hours ago||
Less unlikely, but I would still suggest that it is somewhat unlikely for any recent LLM to place any significant probably on, e.g. "disappointment" instead of "failure" as the appropriate token (or series thereof) after "kidney" or any similar example.
khelavastr 4 hours ago|
It's because the individuals who write those laws are literally trying to shove neo-Nazi policies into EU practice. I wonder how many people would make policies like this if they and their families were publicly identified and criticized as neo-Nazi elements in society.

You think someone will write Nazi-promoting AI policy like this when society is encouraged to look at their families as examples of neo-Nazi corruption? When their wives' and kids' friends spurn them while their families engage in obvious criminal activity to harm world productivity?

Critics need to be more precise.

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