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Posted by ropbear 16 hours ago

Anthropic's 'watermark' text adulteration in Claude is a perversion of writing(daringfireball.net)
442 points | 405 commentspage 3
sbszllr 4 hours ago|
I commented it last time the post about Claude watermarking went viral and I'm going to say the same thing again:

"I've been working in the media and model IP space for quite many years. What this article misses a bit is the threat model for watermarking in general. Watermarking and fingerprinting have inherently weak security guarantees -- they rely a lot on security through obscurity, weak assumed adversaries to deliver. There are clear trade offs between true positives, false positives and maintaining the quality of the media. It's true for audio-visual media, models and their outputs alike. As much as I like to take shots at poor technical choices by corps and govs, this one is unjustified. Sure, inserting glyphs is bad but biased sampling is as good as it gets in 2026."

Since the announcement, there have been many people who don't seem to fully understand what a security guarantee is, what trade offs it might involve, or how popular the type of technological solution is in general (media watermarking is ubiquitous).

And naturally, there are challenges with how you will make sense of the score in your org, e.g. you wrote an email, and it's flagged as LLM-generated because you copied two generated/edited paragraphs.

Yeah, the article might disagree with watermarking as a matter of principle, comparing it to censorship. But the methodological arguments that I have read so far have been thin in these articles.

arjie 15 hours ago||
It seems fine. I use an LLM to argue with me prior to posting blog posts so that I don't post obvious incorrectness, but the UX element to it is that it constructs notes about various sections of the text and we talk about those. There's no way for the generated text to enter the blog unless I copy-paste it and I'm not going to do that because the entire point is for me to write it.

At the point that you're generating entire volumes of text from Claude you're not really trying to be a sophisticated writer. I don't see how it's going to hurt for it to choose random related words.

roywiggins 14 hours ago||
it serves to show just how little regard the people behind these generated-text fingerprinting schemes have for the actual craft of writing.

LLMs have never been the place I've thought to expect any commitment to the craft of writing, to be fair.

herrkanin 1 hour ago||
Is this 'best word' with us in the room right now?
capitalsigma 15 hours ago||
> I chose to depend on a private company to express my own thoughts and now I'm mad that I'm not in control of the output

Who could have seen this coming???

bejd 3 hours ago||
>in areas where there is an arbitrary choice between particular words or terms within the code, the watermark can be used, such as comments within code.

I wonder if this is why Opus 5 keeps writing excessively long comments, even though I keep instructing it not to (both in chat, CLAUDE.md, and in its memories)

croemer 53 minutes ago|
Opus 5 does not have the watermark yet. Only models released from now on.
TheOtherHobbes 5 hours ago||
The issue here isn't (just) adulteration, it's that watermarking in general is unworkable.

If all the providers use watermarking systems with different shifting logit weightings, and the keys are secret, you have to check every provider to see if it produced a given text.

Which is clearly ridiculous.

And if all providers collaborate and use the same weightings, or if the weightings are constant and not rotated cryptographically, a generic watermark remover becomes trivial.

That's not even getting into the legal complexities of businesses running open source models without watermarking locally.

vrganj 4 hours ago|
> Interoperability. Providers must implement an interoperability solution for watermark detection such as a standardized API access method, a publicly readable signpost mechanism embedded in content, or participation in a consortium detection solution by February 2, 2027
frm88 3 hours ago||
No idea why this was flagged to death. I vouched for it because it is a direct quote from the AI transparency act: https://theaicounsel.net/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/07_26_co... It clarifies interoperability requirements.
slhck 6 hours ago||
The fact that Gruber points to a "must-read" article about how the watermarking works, which, in turn, was very obviously entirely LLM-generated, says a lot about his lack of experience reading LLM output.

If Gruber can't tell a fully AI-generated article from a human-written one, perhaps he shouldn't care so much.

NB: I was told yesterday it's apparently a meme to call out Claude-generated output, but here I am, as I believe it's quite relevant to the topic at hand.

ilogik 6 hours ago|
Gruber really doesn't like any EU regulation
jeffgreco 15 hours ago||
Gruber has a ridiculous knee-jerk response to anything the EU does, so hardly a surprise he didn't come to the table with a sober facts-based response.
thinkingemote 5 hours ago|
I think we will see a hidden motivation behind this as ultimately so the output can have an author, the author can be attributed and finally the output will be copyrighted and so the LLM has more value.

Everyone who invests in AI companies wants to see the value of their investment increase.

I'd give it about 3-5 years until an AI company claims copyright over code their LLM produces. This is a crucial step in that path.

Cakez0r 4 hours ago||
I think you're right that it's actually to do with attribution (i.e. They're not just watermarking your output as claude generated, but watermarking it as claude generated _by claude user id 73684_). I think it's more to do with the growing militarization of the internet. Just another brick in the wall of enter your phone number to create an account, send your id to prove your age, smile for the flock cameras, etc. Allowing the plebs to have privacy and anonymity is not allowed anymore.
tjpnz 4 hours ago||
As someone who doesn't utilize LLMs for writing production code I'm looking forward to starting a consultancy and reaping the rewards.
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