Top
Best
New

Posted by Ariarule 2 days ago

I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers(www.experimental-history.com)
419 points | 205 commentspage 2
JoeAltmaier 1 hour ago|
About the benches: seems like an oxymoron. New Yorkers love busy places! Of course; they live in New York. Plenty of people on the benches in my midwest city park. Because we by and large are uncomfortable with crowds and noise. Why we don't live in New York.
eapressoandcats 50 minutes ago|
The point isn’t so much that the writing is definitely correct as that the writing is interesting and compelling.
tony_cannistra 5 hours ago||
I have to say, this guy should teach English to high-schoolers.
SamBam 4 hours ago|
I genuinely think that the vast majority of English teachers have had experiences like this. It's what made them become English teachers.

Then, with all the best intent in the world, they try to explain to their students "Look, you don't get this, this fat book is transcendent if you can just sit with it and understand it! I, too, used to think that English class was just stupid words that they force you to read, but let me help you get this! You've got to..."

But all their students hear is Charlie Brown's adults going "Waa waa waa..." because they're genuinely not mature and experienced enough to "get" the book the way the English teacher understood it.

Ten years later a student will re-read one of their literature books, have this same epiphany, and talk excitedly about deep literature is, and someone will tell them they ought to be an English teacher. And the cycle continues.

Ok, so some English teachers are of course better than others, and some will convey their excitement a little better, and some students will be mature enough to understand it better than others.

But I will definitely maintain that all (close to all) English teachers have this same love of books, and want desperately to pass it on.

horsawlarway 34 minutes ago|||
I think this is one of the more important points in this thread.

The problem is that too many pieces require experiences that the majority of the classroom just doesn't have.

It's not that students don't venture far enough into the cave to find the treasure, it's that the treasure literally isn't treasure to them yet.

The venturing that needs to happen for them to find the treasure isn't time spent in the material, it's time spent gaining life experiences.

Ex - there was nothing you could have done to make a book like "The Great Gatsby" good for me as a 15 year old. It's filled with themes that I had no experiences to connect with - no lost romances, no wealth (or even really a sense of wealth and money), no major life regrets, nothing at all to make this book hit. It's a dreary book about miserable, unlikable people when read from the perspective of a 15 year old student.

So why are we asking 15 year old students to read this book?

And that doesn't mean we can't throw students in over their heads every now and then (ex - exposure to the unfamiliar is fine). But if that's all you give them... they decide reading is pointless. You have to strike a middle ground with material that hits home.

And there's a range of teacher quality here as well - some are genuinely good at pushing students towards understanding the value in material, even if they lack experiences. But most aren't (at least in the US educational system I went through, which was a mix of decent public schools and expensive private schools)... they're passionate and well intentioned, but fail to empathize with the emotional maturity and world view of their young students.

imp0cat 1 hour ago|||

    - “Blah blah blah blah skeleton, blah blah blah blah mitochondria! Make sense?”
    - “No!”
vinipolicena 2 hours ago||
Edit: fixing quotes.

I've thought something similar but never put it into words. It's nice when someone else puts your thoughts into words so clearly that you go, "That's exactly how I see this topic!"

> I was presented with art and literature as if it was self-explanatory, and that everything wonderful about it was plainly visible from the outside. But those works were much more like dark, winding caves with treasure stashed inside of them.

> But if someone had outfitted me appropriately, if they warned me that you have to bring one of those crank-up flashlights and you might have to shimmy through some narrow antechambers and spelunk through some flooded passageways, but that eventually you would reach a room full of untold riches—well, maybe I would have actually tried.

jrmg 5 hours ago||
I’ve long held the opinion that humans ‘over’-value complexity. It’s why we can spend so much time tasting, analyzing, and enjoying fancy coffee or whisky - despite the fact that almost everyone is repulsed by them the first time they try them. Literature might be the same?

To be clear, I enjoy all three!

basilikum 5 hours ago||
Good writing isn't complex for complexity's sake though. Mistaking complexity for quality is the most common mistake when it comes to writing — and I allege one central reason why many people like and trust LLM output.

I'd argue that complexity is not even the right word to describe what the author describes. Thickness or depth is more accurate.

aeturnum 4 hours ago|||
The simpler pleasures and pains of life are easier to speak to and we have a lot more (proportionally) media that reflects those experiences. Particular media does it better and worse and so there's a hierarchy, but if you are looking to have your enjoyment of good food and drink reflected in a story that's pretty easy to find.

But life is often more complex than that and it requires great skill to accurately reflect that complexity in creative works. When you're struggling with an experience that is difficult to talk about and understand, a creative work that seems to "get it" can be really valuable in sorting out how to think about that experience. I rarely need help in describing how much I like coffee, but I welcome good writing on the subject of "how should one understand the mixed experience of being very close to someone who you often disagree with."

bobson381 5 hours ago|||
To add on - complexity itself is a perceptual feature introduced by language - we treat and describe things as though they are made of an unimaginable number of tiny parts. So this also increases the fun of the wordy wine/coffee/whisky descriptions!
tony_cannistra 5 hours ago|||
Don't forget software engineering
mmooss 5 hours ago||
I get your idea but I wonder about the construction of this argument:

Is it the complexity itself people value, or the rewards of things that are complex? IME, the most valuable things are complex. Maybe that's because there is not enough capacity in simplicity to contain exceptional value (speaking very generally and loosely - we really need to define terms).

Also, I certainly think people value complex things, but I strongly disagree that they are over-valued. All the best things in my life seem complex.

I could imagine that complexity stimulates the brain in a different way and that adds to reward.

mrhottakes 5 hours ago||
Great piece. Seeing that depth and context is one of the best parts of gaining intellectual maturity.
nchallak 4 hours ago||
This was very good to read. I would like to add "form/structure" to attributes of "thick"ness. It is possible for good art to adhere strictly to a form and yet be universal and transcend the confines imposed by form. E.g. meters in poems. When I write a poem, the imposed constraints make me weigh and choose from multiple words in a way that free-verse doesn't. Now whether that makes for better reading or not is something a reader should say :)
pavel_lishin 4 hours ago||
> The Met Cloisters has these wooden altarpieces from the 1400s that draw your attention immediately, I think because the mind can subconsciously calculate the time it must have taken to carve them, and it sends a signal back to the eyes: important. You know that you are not just seeing a work of art, but the expenditure of a life.

Reminds me of one part of Vernor Vinge's "A Deepness in the Sky".

thrtythreeforty 4 hours ago|
The lake?
pavel_lishin 3 hours ago||
No, the very first meeting with the Emergents, where ... I forget the character's name (Trixia?), but she's a linguist and she figures out that there's something odd about the painting-carvings in the Emergent habitat. She can't put her finger on it until she spends more time studying their language, and figures out that they... well, we're getting into spoiler territory, so rot13: Fur svtherf bhg gung gurl gnyx nobhg crbcyr nf bowrpgf gb or bjarq.
Folcon 2 hours ago|||
Well that's a new experience, I naively googled for "Fur svtherf bhg gung gurl gnyx nobhg crbcyr nf bowrpgf gb or bjarq" and gemini responded to the text without rot13ing it, so I had no idea why it was telling me what it told me, I had to decode it to make sense of it's answer

TIL Gemini can respond to rot13

emaro 42 minutes ago||
I pasted it into Kagi and the smart response just showed the clear text. Usually the smart responses are much more verbose.

Just read "a deepness in the sky" last month, surprised to see a reference here.

thrtythreeforty 3 hours ago|||
I had forgotten that section. Time to reread, I guess!
dbtc 4 hours ago||
This is one of the better written things I have read online in a long time. The quality of the prose almost makes the subject irrelevant.
astatine 4 hours ago||
I wonder whether people who use open source software in the way I do are merely providing the egg (in the context of tfa). Most people, that I know, rarely modify the code in any way and merely build and use. Do not even read it most times. But, it somehow conveys a sense of _doing_ something that the mere install of a binary does not.
waterheater 4 hours ago|
I remember hearing once that a core element of collegiate humanities education involves teaching that a great work can only be understood and appreciated when the reader first understands the work's context. Only then should the reader attempt to summit the great work.

Of course, this is also true in engineering disciplines as well. Perhaps the greatest software engineering work is the Linux kernel. Open the repo, and navigate to a random line in a random file. The odds that you will understand exactly--and I mean exactly--what occurs on that particular line on your first read without an explanatory comment is relatively low. If, however, you consider header files, libraries, how the file fits into the broader kernel, language features, and additional contextual information, your ability to understand that line of code increases significantly.

More comments...