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Posted by phoenix120 13 hours ago

A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome(github.com)
298 points | 114 comments
causal 12 hours ago|
I appreciate the open source approach over the startup's sensational claims. This is more transparent.

That said, I think it still presents itself as if the fly is being controlled by the connectome, when (if I'm reading the source correctly) it's more accurate to say scripted behaviors have been hooked up to be triggered by the connectome.

Put another way, you might as well have the "escape" trigger open a YouTube video of a fly flying away. That would probably be less misleading too.

dullcrisp 9 hours ago||
Yeah I don’t think it’s clear if the connectome is modeling real fruit fly behavior or is just being used as an entropy generator.
londons_explore 4 hours ago|||
If the connectome could be wired to individual muscles, and then demonstrate the ability to walk and fly that would be amazing
ramraj07 12 hours ago|||
I would argue that this is pretty disingenuous (as is most connectomics research I suppose) since its implying we have a fully wired connectome of the fly thats actually meaningful.
squibonpig 11 hours ago||
Why isn't it and what do they have? I'm not really informed on this stuff.
melagonster 9 hours ago||
We only know which neurons are connected, not the weights.
solid_fuel 7 hours ago||
More than that, real neurons don’t behave anything like the ones we model in neural networks - real ones signal with pulses, in a manner where the timing seems as significant as the magnitude of the impulse. Typically simulated neural networks use continuous analog values instead of pulses and a sigmoid function to shape the output.

Basically, the “wiring” might be the same but nothing beyond that is.

- - -

Actually, I may have spoken too soon. Looking over the code this does look like it implements spikey activation, which is more similar to living neurons. You are correct they don’t have the original weights though - in as much as the concept maps to biology.

I am curious if this has a way to dynamically modify the weights as it runs - I consider that a major missing gap between real brains and computer simulated neural networks.

jeffybefffy519 2 hours ago|||
Isnt there also a theory and some evidence that the connectome is not enough to model a brain. Based on the fact that butterlies connectome dissolves during metamorphosis to butterfly but it still remembers things from before that stage of life.
ACCount37 13 minutes ago|||
No, the nervous system is one of those things that don't fully dissolve. Partial info retention is perfectly consistent with partial connectome retention.
ben_w 31 minutes ago|||
That says the butterflies have a back up mechanism, it doesn't say that connectomes are insufficient for modelling running neural processes.

We don't actually know what is sufficient for modelling neural processes until we do it. But we can't really do that until we figure out how to read all the connection strengths.

idiotsecant 7 hours ago|||
I feel like probably a graph of sigmoid or whatever weights of sufficient size can probably model a network of biological neurons signaling frequency and phase and magnitude.
loa_in_ 7 hours ago||
It won't be confirmed until we record all the stimuli and outputs of a fruit fly's nervous system in normal environment.
andbberger 6 hours ago||
cursor input get scripted into loom input to the LC4s which are evidently simulated faithfully enough to drive giant fibers, which is actually how fly escape behavior works. what more could you want
WithinReason 53 minutes ago||
Related (fictional):

https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

MMAcevedo (Mnemonic Map/Acevedo), also known as Miguel, is the earliest executable image of a human brain. It is a snapshot of the living brain of neurology graduate Miguel Acevedo Álvarez (2010–2073), taken by researchers at the Uplift Laboratory at the University of New Mexico on August 1, 2031

DaiPlusPlus 12 hours ago||
I have no exposure to connectomes - or really anything quite like this (as opposed to good ol’ fashioned perceptrons) - so forgive my following uninformed question:

Can someone explain if this software is ethical?

jephs 11 hours ago||
If your circle of empathy includes fruit flies, fuck no, we murdered so many of those guys to figure out how their tiny brains work.

If you do not think of fruit flies as moral patients, sure, yeah, who cares, they're like just fruit flies you know?

yawpitch 6 hours ago||
If your circle of empathy doesn’t include fruit flies, endeavor to expand your circular of empathy until it does.

Goto 0.

ACCount37 11 minutes ago|||
If your circle of empathy includes fruit flies, shrink and prune until it no longer does.
ivell 5 hours ago||||
With this code, the only things we can eat would be fruits where we diligently plant its seeds (plants are also living things and fruits are the offerings in return we should sow its seeds) :-)
yawpitch 4 hours ago||
Ever met a Jain?
ivell 1 hour ago||
AFAIK, Jains consume diary products.
yawpitch 3 minutes ago||
You tell me where the consumption of dairy products must result in harm to the cow. I grew up around small-scale, subsistence-level dairy farming, it doesn’t inherently require any more suffering than either egg-harvesting or apple-growing inherently do.

A Jain doesn’t have to purchase milk from a factory farmer.

And AFAIK even the most stringent vegans don’t brush insects from their path with every step, or avoid onions and carrots because it causes death.

sgt 5 hours ago||||
Are you seriously suggesting that we should have empathy for ... fruit flies? Speechless
invalidusernam3 3 hours ago|||
Why would you choose not to have empathy for a living creature?
shaky-carrousel 3 hours ago||
Because lice are also living creatures. And I have no empathy for them, and hopefully never will.
yawpitch 2 minutes ago||
I do, and I hopefully will eventually get to leeches too.
agilemonkey 4 hours ago|||
Why not ? Do you think that in the grand scheme of the universe you are more important than a fruit fly ?
sgt 4 hours ago||
I'd hope so! The way that a planet is more important than a snowball.
yawpitch 4 hours ago||
Depends a great deal on the planet and the snowball, doesn’t it?

But, that said, a mark of being more important than a lesser being would kind of be the virtue of still empathizing with that being, even if we assume there’s a hierarchy.

And considering you and I are really just elaborate transport vessels for E. Coli and a lot of fungal spores, I’m not sure we should assume there’s a hierarchy.

firtoz 4 hours ago|||
Why?
yawpitch 4 hours ago||
Self-improvement, for one.
janalsncm 11 hours ago|||
> Can someone explain if this software is ethical?

Probably not. People have been coming up with ethical frameworks for thousands of years and we have yet to come to a consensus.

So it’s very unlikely that someone can say conclusively whether this is ethical or not, because that would require us to either 1) prove a single ethical framework is correct and then apply that framework to this software or 2) prove that under all possible ethical frameworks this software is either ethical or not ethical.

_def 11 hours ago|||
Genuinely curious, is there like a simple list of competing ethical frameworks?
janalsncm 11 hours ago|||
There’s a list here, not sure if it’s the best one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics
jasonjayr 11 hours ago|||
Not to drop any spoilers (hide this comment before reading further ....)

But "The Amazing Digital Circus" explores this concept relating to human brain scans, and how the 'simulated' brains would react under simulation.

SamBam 9 hours ago|||
Similarly, the story Lena by qntm.[1]

It describes in part how some volunteer brain scans are actually quite agreeable to work with until they work for too many hours, and then they get fussy, but it's cool, you can always reboot them. But you need to hide from them the fact that it's been decades since they were scanned and uploaded, or they'll realize how long they've been slaves for.

1. https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

mock-possum 3 hours ago||
and both Black Mirror and Westworld explore these same ‘what-if’s’ in turn.
jamilton 8 hours ago|||
It really does not "explore" the concept, it just features it as a plot element.
viccis 11 hours ago|||
Honestly pretty funny that you gave a (fairly useless) metaethical answer instead of responding to the actual meaning, which was clearly soliciting ethical judgments about it.
randomImmigrant 7 hours ago|||
Yes. Because it’s a simulation of a living thing. It’s still electrons moving around silicon. It deserves the respect your MacBook does. Which is not nothing. But certainly not what’s due to a life.
reverius42 6 hours ago||
A lot of people believe that this reality, in which we're conversing on HN, is also a simulation (thus making the fruit fly a simulation within a simulation).
lp4v4n 10 hours ago|||
How could this be anti-ethical? You're just running a very complex algorithm in your machine.
j16sdiz 9 hours ago||
When one truly believes:

0) Subjecting fruitfly life to this kind of treatment is unethical.

1) Life is just physics in action.

2) Physics are just algorithm (or our physical world is a simulation)

It is not hard to understand why they think it is unethical.

My question are

1) is all life equal?

2) is all suffering unethical?

3) is this world materialistic or are there something out there?

4) should a list of items begin with 0 or 1?

fluoridation 8 hours ago||
If life is physics and physics is an algorithm, it doesn't follow that an algorithm reproducing the physics of life contains life, even if we grant that it actually reproduces it completely and perfectly. That's just confusing the symbol for the thing.
idiotsecant 7 hours ago||
If it reproduces it perfectly it's not a symbolic representation of the thing, it is the thing, by any definition that makes sense.
fluoridation 7 hours ago||
It's not the thing, because the thing is made of substance, not electronic impulses. No matter how hard you compute, you will never compute the simulation into a real, tangible object. The simulation and the real object are extremely, obviously distinguishable, even though they're structurally analogous.

If you could simulate a human perfectly, the simulated human would not be a human, it would be a simulated human. It's not a given that it would be subject to the same rules of ethics as real humans.

dainank 4 hours ago|||
I disagree.

If the simulation of electronic impulses is exactly the same as what occurs 'in the substance', then merely the medium over which signals occur is different. In my eyes, whatever is experiencing these signals will experience them the same way.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48175140#48177554

fluoridation 4 hours ago||
Sorry, I can't respond because I don't know which statement in particular you're disagreeing with. What I can say is that, unless you're using words in a surprising way, I agree with

>If the simulation of electronic impulses is exactly the same as what occurs 'in the substance', then merely the medium over which signals occur is different. In my eyes, whatever is experiencing these signals will experience them the same way.

and I don't see how it's in contradiction with anything I said.

peddling-brink 7 hours ago|||
Yikes. So because it can’t hit you back, you’re ok with it suffering?

Also relevant short story: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

fluoridation 7 hours ago||
I just said it's not a given. It's not immediately obvious.

EDIT: I prefer SOMA's take on it.

vincnetas 6 hours ago|||
Is ethics another tool in a power play game (religion being another) that people use to exert dominance over other people? No one expects of cat or pigeon to be ethical. But somehow humans sometimes get overloaded by external demand to think of gazillion things that might offend someone (sometimes unreasonable demands, or how it might get interpreted (sometimes incorrectly)) before acting.

Im not saying ethics is bad, but sometimes people bend to to extremes (same like spirituality or religion)

yawpitch 6 hours ago||
Ethics has nothing to do with how an action is perceived, rather its focus is on is the action moral.

One should never take any action without considering the ethical implications of that action. Being capable of that is, arguably, the sole thing that meaningfully separates us from the (real or simulated) fruitfly.

vincnetas 5 hours ago|||
"Ethics has nothing to do with how an action is perceived" "...considering the ethical implications of that action"

Are these two not contradictions?

And is it not the too big of a load on an actor to think about everything before acting? I would prefer to delegate this function to my empathy part of the brain...

At the end i think ethics is valid only for cases where empathy is functioning. You can not be ethical to a rock unless you feel empathy for it. Same probably would go for extra strange extraterrestrial life forms that you could not empathise with. Lets say hive of microbes that makes the hive sentient but no limbs, no shared communication signals, different size categories (planetary hive)

fluoridation 5 hours ago|||
I think the question is valid. Why should a human have a moral responsibility towards non-humans, while a cat doesn't have a moral responsibility towards non-cats, just because the human is capable of making moral judgements? Is there any analogous situation where capacity engenders responsibility? Are gorillas more responsible for how they use their strength, since they're stronger than humans?

>Being capable of that is, arguably, the sole thing that meaningfully separates us from the (real or simulated) fruitfly.

That's a bit of an extreme hyperbole, don't you think?

darkwater 5 hours ago|||
> Why should a human have a moral responsibility towards non-humans, while a cat doesn't have a moral responsibility towards non-cats, just because the human is capable of making moral judgements?

Because as a human you recognize patterns in other animals that are similar to ours - the deepest pattern being alive - so you can project your feelings over them. This is also called empathy, and some in our kind lack it completely, but I would dare to say that is globally one of the defining traits of the human species.

fluoridation 4 hours ago||
You're answering a different question, which is "why do humans empathize with non-humans?" Humans can empathize with inanimate objects and with fictional people. The question of the origin of empathy really has nothing to do with what I asked.
darkwater 4 hours ago||
I think I do answered your question but maybe it was too implicit, so let me be more explicit. A human should have moral responsibility towards non-humans because of empathy and recognizing the fact that other animals are alive as well.
fluoridation 3 hours ago||
Bacteria are alive too, and I'm going to guess you don't claim we have a moral responsibility to them. And as I said, humans can feel empathy for things that are not alive. The capacity to feel empathy rests entirely on the empathizer, and has nothing to do with any intrinsic properties of the empathizee. Is a psychopathic murderer morally in the right because he doesn't feel any empathy for his victims?
dudefeliciano 5 hours ago|||
It would be a great starting point if human felt moral responsibility towards other humans, before we take on the matter of ethics towards non-humans, simulated fireflies or LLMs. Yet here we are.
bad_username 5 hours ago|||
I believe that any simulation of consciousness is consciousness, so ethical implications apply. But I also don't believe fruit flies are conscious for any definition of that word.
ramraj07 12 hours ago|||
Why do you think it wont be?
twothreeone 11 hours ago||
Well, one obvious question is if the simulated brain experiences pain, or more generally can it suffer? And if so, how would we tell.
fluoridation 10 hours ago|||
What does "suffering" mean? Define your boolean function, apply it to the state of the program, and you'll know if the program is currently suffering.
logicallee 8 hours ago|||
I've ported it to the browser and connected a squash functionality behind an ethical guardrail (you have to lift a cover to engage this functionality). need to iterate on the ui but will share it soon. you can squash the bug and cause it real pain. it also sees you if you turn your camera on and reacts to your movements. this is all wired up and I'll post it shortly.
DaiPlusPlus 3 hours ago||
I can’t tell if you’re a talented comedian - or if you should be assessed for sociopathy.
hellohello2 9 hours ago|||
Yes I can, no problem. First figure out how consciousness works and tell me, then I'll be able to explain if the software is ethical or not. Its simple really.
DaiPlusPlus 2 hours ago||
As we don’t know yet, it has to be determined by the balance of probabilities; but even if the weight of evidence leads us to conclude that-there’s-no-consciousness going on when you run this, there’s still going to be a chance of us being wrong, let’s say 10%… Is the utility (…or entertainment value) of this program worth a 10% chance that we confidently, yet unwittingly, create perhaps the most cruellest machine it’s ever possible to make, and then have to live with ourselves?
andbberger 6 hours ago||
unbelievable amount of coarse graining to get from a real fly to this. same leve of ethical quandary as giving your dog a stuffed bear to tear apart. besides, you should see the things we do to real flies...
a1o 12 hours ago||
> What's modeled vs. measured

> Honesty section:

I wouldn’t mind an human written README

rossy 8 hours ago||
> Honesty section:

This one gets to me. Not only is it useless (paragraph would have the same meaning if it was removed) but wdym "honesty section," Claude? The whole readme should be honest! One of the many causes of psychological damage when reading AI-generated technical writing is the reminder that one of its tics is that declares when it's being honest or real, casting doubt on the rest.

isoprophlex 5 hours ago||
Don't you ever add a few dishonest paragraphs to your docs to spice things up?
dag11 9 hours ago|||
> runs as a 1 kHz leaky-integrate-and-fire (LIF) simulation

That hyphenated thing is always such a give. Clearly a thing discussed in the Claude conversation, made its way into the plan, then the readme. It always creates hyphenated phrases out of things it feels are core requirements.

I'm actually over caring about Claude's obsession with the concepts of "real", "honest", and "rather than". What annoys me the most now is how every single sentence, bullet, etc that even makes its way into the products it builds are advertisements for itself. Product settings pages now read like ads, or like something written by a student begging for extra credit from the teacher. You can't unsee it!

etienne89 7 hours ago||
To be fair, as a term it has always been written as "Integrate-and-Fire" neuron model. In this case correct would be "Leaky Integrate-and-Fire" but that is nitpicking.

Resources that outdate ChatGPT: - W. Gerstner "Neuronal Dynamics" (2014): https://neuronaldynamics.epfl.ch/online/Ch1.S3.html - E. Izhikevich "Which model to use for cortical spiking neurons?" (2004): https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/1333071

egorfine 3 hours ago|||
Honestly? I don't even know how to write anymore. Generative text is unequivocally nice, polished and correct. And it so happens that I do write in the same style as well. I never use LLMs to write human content, but here we are: I cannot use "honestly" anymore. And the emdash. Thank God we got "delve" back, though.
vhantz 12 hours ago||
> live *spiking* simulation
aperrien 13 hours ago||
Interesting work! There's NeuroMechFly (https://github.com/NeLy-EPFL/flygym/) available, you might try using that to simulate the fly body in real time as well.
pavel_lishin 12 hours ago||
Ah, Mr. Acevedo, nice to see you.
uniq7 13 hours ago||
No demo video?
davidkwast 13 hours ago||
I just found this video on YouTube now:

https://youtu.be/A8fDr7Rr7yM?is=cHwOQVrli9oXLdqY

yreg 12 hours ago|||
That doesn't show this project.
hmokiguess 12 hours ago|||
Open to see what it was about, stayed for the banger soundtrack
tedd4u 11 hours ago||
FYI it takes less than 30 seconds do clone, build, and run.
asimovDev 5 hours ago|||
it would've taken the similar amount of time for the OP to do a 10 second screen recording and paste it into the project root to be linkable from the README.md and it would avoid thousands of people having to waste compute cycles and electricity and 30 seconds of their lives cloning and building , wouldn't it?
UltraSane 11 hours ago|||
If you have a mac. I don't.
qingcharles 11 hours ago||
At some point in the future would it be possible to simply download a DNA sequence of an entire animal as a "ROM" and boot it into a virtual "reality"?

What detail level of reality would we have to emulate for an egg to grow into an adult animal?

Leynos 10 hours ago|
To give you a sense of the computation needed, a spatiotemporal physics simulation of a minimal (493 gene) bacterium's full 105 minute cellular cycle took 4-6 days of GPU hours on two A100s.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009286742...

Compare this with a c elegens nematode: ~20000 protein coding genes and 959 cells, with all the extra machinery you'll find in a eukaryotic cell.

I'm reading this as both a question of raw simulation surface and combinatorics.

fooker 9 hours ago||
We'd need analog solutions for this simulations, and slowly these solutions will start to resemble biology in a dystopian way.
lp4v4n 10 hours ago|
Would we be able to have a "digital human" when we reach the level of creating this kind of brain mapping for the human brain?

Honestly I think we're still discovering how powerful neural networks are and certainly they can do computations that sound very close to intelligence in some contexts, but I still find it hard to think that we can simplify the whole reality of an incredibly complex chemical machinery down to a bunch of matrices multiplications.

fooker 9 hours ago|
> bunch of matrices multiplications

What these matrix multiplications are doing is approximately solving pretty high order differential equations.

The approximation is not very analog, sure. But neither is nature.

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