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Posted by dabinat 13 hours ago

Scientists stunned by children's lung recovery in ultra low emission zone(www.bbc.com)
319 points | 257 commentspage 3
stevezsa8 4 hours ago|
The sad thing is... when the ULEZ went into effect, there were some wild conspiracy theories about it. Suddenly even my father was an expert and viewed it as sinister government intervention - all because of youtube crackpots. I couldn't get him to relate to my view that cleaner air must be a good thing.

I bet if some youtube weirdos pushed out videos against "big soap" for making us unnecessarily clean our hands after pooping... we'd have a growing following of angry "freedom from big soap" people.

wickedsight 4 hours ago|
> I bet if some youtube weirdos pushed out videos against "big soap" for making us unnecessarily clean our hands after pooping... we'd have a growing following of angry "freedom from big soap" people.

At one point during Covid, I tried (not very hard at all) to float a conspiracy that the vaccine was in fact not the poison, but the antidote. That Covid was deliberately designed by governments to filter the 'independent thinkers' (who won't take the vaccine) from the sheep (those who do take the vaccine). So by not taking the vaccine, you were giving the governments what they wanted.

This was because the conspiracy that governments were killing the loyal sheep with the vaccine, therefore only leaving the 'independent thinkers' behind, made absolutely no sense at all to me.

Animats 6 hours ago||
While having something done at Stanford's hospitals, at one point I was placed in a room with signs indicating it was on a heavily filtered ventilation system rated for COVID, etc. It was striking to be in an environment with air almost to clean room quality.
kahf56 3 hours ago||
Isn't this common sense? What is being "stunned" !!
bjackman 3 hours ago|
If you click the link at the top you'll find it goes to an article. The article will often expand upon the text in the link!!!

In this case:

"While we would expect children's lungs to grow year on year, our results indicate that the London children's lung growth had accelerated during the four years to 'catch up' with the control group in Luton to reach similar levels of lung capacity," researchers say.

"I was absolutely stunned when I first saw the results," Prof Chris Griffiths, a senior author on the study, at Queen Mary University of London, told the BBC.

"The speed of catch up in lung capacity in the London group was surprising and impressive."

lynguist 3 hours ago||
- Fuck diesel cars

[0]: https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/...

"High diesel-family averages were approximately 1–3 g NOx/km. Most gasoline-family averages clustered around approximately 0.02–0.15 g/km."

[1]: https://publications.tno.nl/publication/34635198/KxBBl3/TNO-...

"TNO tested in-use vehicles directly at the tailpipe. Three diesels with DPFs emitted: 3.9–5.3 million particles/cm³ at warm low idle. The same report measured warm Euro 5 direct-injection gasoline cars without gasoline particulate filters at: 50,000–60,000 particles/cm³ at low idle."

[2]: https://d-nb.info/137495313X/34

"In 2017, the highest diesel was approximately 12 g black carbon/kg fuel, versus roughly 0.4 g/kg for the highest gasoline car. In 2023, the highest diesel was roughly 8 g/kg, versus approximately 0.7 g/kg gasoline."

[3]: https://trueinitiative.org/insights/true-brussels-emissions-...

"approximately 5% of measured Euro 5b/Euro 6 diesel vehicles exceeded one million particles/cm³, and this small group produced more than 90% of the particle emissions from the tested diesel group"

unglaublich 1 hour ago|
- Fuck two stroke engines even more

"Levels in the raw 2S scooter exhaust were as high as 300,000 μg m−3 or 146 p.p.m.(v) from idling. The EU annual mean limit for the protection of human health is 5 μg m−3 (ref. 13), while the US National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health recommends that workers wear special breathing equipment when exposed to benzene at levels exceeding 1 p.p.m. for 15 min. Waiting in traffic behind a 2S scooter, for example, at junctions and while the scooter is idling, may therefore be highly deleterious to health." [0]: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ncomms4749

But cities are full of shitty mopeds and old Vespas, for no benefit but cultural cosplay reasons.

himata4113 5 hours ago||
This is a reminder that getting an air purifier with high airflow filters (NOT HEPA!) is lifechanging in cities with high pollution levels.

I recommend getting one of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQGfO4hNb60 and just slapping a MERV 12 to 16 filter on it, you can get a whole roll off aliexpress for cheap and replace them monthly if you wanted to and it would be cheaper than 1 hepa filter replacement. They can also filter vastly more air, while you can keep hepa for 6 to 12 months MERV will filter a lot more air.

seanp2k2 7 hours ago||
I've been meaning to do some data mining on how much PM2.5 differs with even a few hundred feet of elevation. I have a theory that even around Silicon Valley, living even up a little bit in the foothills would have you breathing massively cleaner air most of your life vs living in the pits of the valley. I see it all the time when I'm out there for recreation or just driving, the smoggy haze all over that just sits in the valley and the Bay. It's probably not too tough of a data processing challenge to compare the stats on Purple Air AQI sensors in reasonably close geo proximity vs elevation to get some statistically-significant data on this.
XorNot 11 hours ago||
So punchline, probably a good idea to electrify all the cars yeah?
simonsquiff 9 hours ago||
100%, and not just due to no emissions / minimal break dust. The noise reduction is a massive dividend. I used to live in london 10+ years ago, and when I come back I’m stunned by the noise difference, it really is so much quieter especially in central london. EVs everywhere especially replacing the horribly noisy diesel black cabs and buses. Very noticeably different and much more pleasant, and improving all the time as EV adoption continues to accelerate, hooray
Aozora7 1 hour ago|||
Noise reduction benefit is marginal. Most of the noise comes from tires rather than the engine. At 30 km/h tires are louder than the engine, so an EV driving at 50 km/h, which is the typical city speed limit, isn't any quieter than an ICE car.
jabl 8 hours ago||||
Absolutely.

It's annoying though that EV's need that extra Darth Vader on wheels sound to warn pedestrians, I'd prefer them to be as quiet as possible.

garbawarb 1 hour ago|||
A lot of jurisdictions have laws that say electric cars must emit thatbnoise while driving. Which is basically because you might not be able to hear them over the louder sound of gas cars. I hope that that requirement can go away if we get to near 100% electric.
adonovan 6 hours ago|||
You can switch it off, or make it play one of several different ridiculous sounds.
dotancohen 6 hours ago||
On which vehicles can the humming in reverse gear be switched off? I understand the Tesla (my car) and the BYD (expires car) can not turn that off.
zekrioca 2 hours ago|||
That, and even better when coupled with good public transportation.
mellosouls 10 hours ago|||
Probably a much better idea first to have a decent public transport and electric car support network throughout the country first.

We don't all live in the city.

hdgvhicv 4 hours ago||
And those of us who don’t can just plug in at home.
cryptopian 3 hours ago|||
London's also been putting effort into improving safe bicycle routes lately. I visit London every few weeks and if I'm going somewhere in central, I'll often just grab one of the Santander hire bikes instead of the tube. Well, most of London (looking at you, Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea)
ZeroGravitas 4 hours ago|||
Yes, and...

In some areas of London the ULEZ has been so successful that the measured NOx is now coming mostly from gas boilers used for heating, probably mostly old large commerical units.

So shifting from gas boilers to heat pumps and from gas ovens and stoves to electric/indusction is also beneficial.

jimbob45 11 hours ago|||
That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Although…rail might solve those?
jillesvangurp 9 hours ago|||
EVs use regenerative braking. So they hardly produce any brake particulates. And the tire particulates are heavy so they don't stay airborn for nearly as long. At low speeds, tires don't wear out as quickly.

Europe has quite a few cities where traffic is increasingly discouraged from going to the inner cities. Cities like Paris and London are much transformed from what they used to be and it shows in the health statistics.

It's not just the particulates but also nitrous oxides (nox) produced by combustion engines. Nox is correlated with lots of health issues. Take it away and you see lower rates of chronic lung issues, cancer, development issues with kids, etc.

But yes, tires are also an issue. But a fairly minor one to anything coming out of a combustion engine.

Mass transit indeed is nice in big cities. Removes the need for taking the car.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 8 hours ago||
There is a generator at the end of my street in a shipping container sized metal box, it also has a mini office and loo, and is used by the construction workers digging holes in the road. It has company spiel written on the side, promoting the box's environmental credentials, including the punchline: 'Zero NOX when generator not in use'.

No shit Sherlock.

throwaway89201 8 hours ago|||
Might instead refer to a start-stop / battery backup kind of system, where idling-but-on doesn't burn any fuel, but sudden loads can still be serviced.
testing22321 8 hours ago|||
I look forward to the day coke is marketed as “zero fat!”
cousinbryce 11 hours ago||||
https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Rail, bike, even busses are better. Cars are uniquely bad transportation in urban environments
mhandley 11 hours ago||
Do the numbers in that article make sense? 5.8g/km for tyre wear? Generally my tyres last maybe 25000 miles. So at that rate they would lose 230kg. Seems high.
danparsonson 10 hours ago|||
"Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) are particles released into the air from brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust during on-road vehicle usage."

I guess they mean total non-exhaust particulates.

lazide 10 hours ago|||
They might be counting trucks?
masklinn 8 hours ago||||
> That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles.

Regen braking means significantly less brake dust, especially at city speeds and with blended braking.

> Although…rail might solve those?

Trains still have brakes. Some can regen brake but because they usually don’t have batteries they need the rail or overhead gantry to support inputs.

But on a passenger-mile basis, I expect an electric train produces essentially no particulates compared to a car, even a light rail on tyres. I do not however have numbers.

Symbiote 7 hours ago|||
The usual brake on a train that can't do regenerative breaking is a big grid of resistors to dump the energy as heat.

It's much less wear and tear than friction brakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking

rsynnott 5 hours ago||
And diesel hydraulic trains (and some buses) usually use these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarder_(mechanical_engineeri...
jurip 8 hours ago|||
I believe at least subways tend to have lousy air:

https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-dispro...

But I expect it's much better in open-air rail systems.

masklinn 6 hours ago||
I was thinking open-air yes, tunnels do indeed have major issue. With pollutant concentrations, road tunnels are the same (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...).

For all that I did not care for them originally this is probably something full-height platform screen doors help with, assuming the trains themselves are also filtered that would keep the pollutants clear of drivers and users, although it does not exactly resolve the question of managing their presence in the tunnels themselves (and track / tunnel maintenance personnel should probably already be wearing respirators if not full breathing apparatus), and I could see things get pretty dire in case of breakdowns.

rsynnott 5 hours ago||
Impossible to retrofit, of course, but what helps more are big tunnels. Modern ~9m diameter single tunnel systems are a lot better for this than old 3.5m diameter double tunnel systems.
mhandley 11 hours ago|||
Tyre, no, but regen braking almost eliminates brake particles at the speeds I drive in London. But mostly I take the train. Unfortunately the highest I measured on my particulate sensor is not near the roads, but in the tube.
Gibbon1 7 hours ago||
Electric vehicles are stills cars. But better than gasoline and especially diesel cars.

So yeah.

That said not clear to me about PM2.5 is I've never seen anything legit seeming that tries to characterize the harm based on the type/source. Though it seems agreed diesel is especially bad.

OutOfHere 11 hours ago||
I use air purifiers mounted on my windows, running continuously except in the deep summer and deep winter. This makes my air contain 50-100x fewer particulates than the outdoor air. In contrast, the best I can achieve with floor air purifiers as people have them is a 5-10x reduction. The window purifiers also keep excess CO2 and VOCs out.
Terr_ 10 hours ago||
> The window purifiers also keep excess CO2 and VOCs out.

I assume you mean that the increased air-exchange (purified or not) helps CO2 that originates inside the house to leave promptly? (Equalizing it with the outdoors.)

Literally "keeping CO2 out" is a much trickier and more-expensive proposition.

OutOfHere 6 hours ago||
You are quite correct on both counts.
bad_username 7 hours ago|||
Health improvements are not measurable any more if you go below 5 mcg/m2 average level of PM2.5 particulates. For 50x reduction to be beneficial, you need to live in an area where the pollution is 250 mcg/m2, which is an extreme level found only in a few unfortunate places on Earth. 5-10x reduction is reasonable almost everywhere.
OutOfHere 6 hours ago||
I know precisely the subjective difference between a 5x reduction and a 50x reduction. Only the latter feels sufficiently good to me, and my brain operates better with it. You will know it when you experience it. Maybe it's my middle-aged brain that needs the extra support. I live in an urban area near traffic. Lately there intermittently also has been wildfire smoke coming down from Canada.
energy123 10 hours ago||
You have activated carbon to filter out the VOCs?
OutOfHere 6 hours ago||
Yes, the filter absolutely has an activated carbon layer in it in addition to a HEPA layer. I understand that activated carbon doesn't last long. I have been changing the filter every two months.

Note that because this purifier is mounted at the window, it filters incoming air from outside, not the indoor VOCs that are already in the residence. The indoor VOCs will simply have to get exhausted from elsewhere due to the air pressure.

What I am suggesting is that my need for activated carbon is slightly less because I am rapidly pushing the VOCs out in the resulting exhaust.

scotty79 4 hours ago|
Who knew that populating Earth with mechanical horses that shit into the air is not such a great idea.
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