Posted by mayoff 9 hours ago
The elegant fact that the base of the natural logarithm, which produces an exponential function that is its own derivative, also shows up as the basis for the above Euler's formula, shows that radians are special: like what binary is to computers.
The natural logarithm being its own derivative is in fact directly linked to the derivative a radians-based sin(x) being cos(x) and so on. Make it any other unit, and you have a mess of conversion factors worse than 2pi.
Imagine complex chained derivatives, double and triple derivative, chain and product rules, all stuffed with trig functions and generating gratuitous piles of cascaded conversion constrants because radians were not used.
If you look at all the simplest differential equations you can think of, the sin(t)/cos(t) functions in radians are almost inevitable independent from their geometric usage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenty%27s_formulae
https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2018/11/24/spheroid-distance/
Further, inverse vincenty is pretty much an essential in anything that needs to find the azimuth between two points on a map. Such as for microwave radio link planning purposes.
Karney (2013) is also radian dependent.
I expect many systems that use trigonometry would sometimes use small-angle approximations either for efficiency or to bootstrap to the general case. It'd be natural to use Taylor series here, i.e.:
cos(x) = 1 - x^2/2 + ...
sin(x) = x - x^3/6 + ...
cos(2 pi t) = 1 - (2 pi t)^2/2 + ...
sin(2 pi t) = (2 pi t) - (2 pi t)^3/6 + ...
Closely related to this, if you ever need the derivative of a function that does trig (e.g., in numerical optimization), you may as well use radians because if you don't, any extra factors you apply will appear in the expressions for the derivatives and you'll have to deal with them there anyway.
Basically for that reason, it's pretty clear that trigonometry in terms of radians is the "correct" convention mathematically speaking (away from computers), since derivatives of the radian-based trig functions are so easy to express. Given that, if we have to pick one convention...isn't it less confusing to use the same thing everywhere? That said, there are interfaces that provide both versions, and since as the article points out there are cases where the turn-based versions can be more efficient, that's probably the right way to go.
In most general math library implementations (e.g., the library in glibc, musl, etc.), the implementation of sin, as with most functions, is going to be a polynomial evaluation. See, e.g., https://github.com/kraj/musl/blob/kraj/master/src/math/__cos... for the implementation in musl, or https://github.com/bminor/glibc/blob/master/sysdeps/ieee754/... for glibc's implementation.
Of course, if you're not using a standard math library implementation, you're probably preferring speed over accuracy, and so you might use a lookup table and linear interpolation to get a very coarse approximation instead.
Tend to use radians because we're moving from written proofs or simulations into embedded code in such systems. The code needs to read and work the same as those.
edit: Sorry, to clarify, this was a function involving trigonometry but not simply vanilla sine or cosine. However, angular values being represented in radians did help in the same way I described in the parent post.
So mathematical libraries in WASM reimplement the trigonometric functions using series.
Example: https://github.com/WebAssembly/wasi-libc/blob/2e6fb9d8ee0cdf...
Michael Spivak, in Calculus (3rd ed p. 301) considers the unit choice to be a property of the function and initially defines sin° and sinʳ (before settling on sin meaning sinʳ) and considers “sin x°” and “sin x radians” to be misleading, saying that ‘a number x is simply a number—it does not carry a banner indicating that it is “in degrees” or “in radians”’. I don’t really understand this argument, since in science and engineering we constantly carry units around with our quantities.
‘But wait!’ You may cry: ‘the formula for a transverse wave varies with the sine of a distance!’
To which I would say no: it varies with the sine of a distance (the horizontal displacement), divided by another distance (the wavelength), divided by 2pi. The distances cancel out and leave a scalar. The sine is taken of that pure scalar; it results in a pure scalar; and then it’s multiplied by another distance (the amplitude) to give you a vertical displacement. Sine is a pure function.
Something else to consider is that the way we combine units with scalars to create dimensional quantities is through multiplication - and it’s not like there’s a simple formula for what a sine of a product is - I can’t determine sin(ab) in terms of sines or other functions of a and b. So if, say, a ‘degree’ were some dimensional unit, sin(90°) would not be something I could calculate - despite knowing sin(90) I don’t know sin(°) - whatever that would mean - and even if I did it gets me no closer to figuring out sin(90°)
Realizing that ° is just a mathematical constant equal to pi/180 solves a lot here.
I mostly agree with your explanation, but would like to emphasize that this is just a convention from mathematics which mostly carries over into physics and engineering. We like to define functions that are R -> R and similar, instead of defining special sets like R° = { r * 360° | r \in R }, corresponding to "real numbers with unit degrees", and then defining functions like sin: R° -> R. It’s just simpler to define and analyze most functions from R -> R and so we mostly do that.
But if you look up physics papers, it’s not uncommon to define functions that require unitful inputs as well. For example, the wave function in the Schrödinger equation maps a position r (3D vector with unit meter) and time t (scalar with unit seconds), to a probability amplitude (complex number with unit m^-3/2), so that \int |ψ(r,t)|^2 d3r becomes a scalar (a probability). Up wave function is still considered a function by all physicists.
On the other hand I am still unhappy with calling the ratio of two quantities, that happen to have the same units, "dimensionless". This way, you could create any two "dimensionless" quantities and try to compare them or use one in place of the other which might be meaningless.
Case in point:
Edit: Apparently "same dimension" doesn't imply "same unit".
Perhaps not in mathematics, but in programming that's clearly possible. I guess programming is more general than mathematics.
That's why pow(3m, 2) = 9 m^2, and not `the value 9 of type meter`. Of course, you can define the type `square meter` as well, and define `pow -> meters -> positive integer -> square meters`. However this quickly becomes overwhelming once you start doing more complex expressions with multiple types. What is the type of `pow (3kg^2 * m/s, 3/2)`?
Edit to add: also, there is a simple fact that "sin(pi/2 kg)" is just not defined, in programming or math or physics or any other useful system. It's definitely not 1kg, just like sin ( (pi/2) * 2) is not sin (pi/2) * sin (2).
Isn't the "special constant" exactly "value 1, type meters", defined as equal to "value <...very large number...> type atoms" etc?
If not, then what would be the result of the multiplication of 3 with "m"?
> Of course, you can define the type `square meter` as well, and define `pow -> meters -> positive integer -> square meters`
As long as your power is an integer, you can reduce it to multiplication. So what you'd really want to define is the result of "<value1 of type meter> * <value2 of type meter>", "(<value1 of type meter> * <value2 of type meter>) * <value3 of type meter>" etc.
What this gets you in the end is a type algebra, but that is also not exactly a new concept.
It's most obvious with radians but it's also the case with degrees.
Using radians, you are guaranteed to not introduce unusual extra terms to rescale angles, if you use any other scale of angle you will have to keep track of extra terms.
That may be useful in whatever you're doing. I work in degrees quite often and I'm careful to keep track of the 2pi/360 terms that crop up all over the place. With grade measure you have to keep track of 2pi/400 terms and with turns you have to keep track of 2pi/1 terms that will repeatedly show up.
Again, depending on what you're doing, this may or may not make sense to do.
In general, mathematics works out easier when the scaling term is 2pi/2pi because then you have a lovely 1 scale factor you don't have to keep track of.
This is a known wrinkle in dimensional analysis and people have considered making angles a fundamental quantity such as mass, length and time but have not done so because of the disruption it would cause.
More details here
> The current state of affairs leads inevitably to ghostly appearances and disappearances of the radian in the dimensional analysis of physical equations.
In "A spectral unit", Nature Physics (2020) - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0997-3.pdf Giacomo Prando summarizes the troubled history of the radian, a unit with the odd property of appearing and disappearing seemingly at will in dimensional formulas
It led me to reading about "dimensionless quantity".
> There have been periodic proposals to "patch" the SI system to reduce confusion regarding physical dimensions. For example, a 2017 op-ed in Nature argued for formalizing the radian as a physical unit.
SI units need reform to avoid confusion (2017) - https://doi.org/10.1038%2F548135b
> The idea was rebutted on the grounds that such a change would raise inconsistencies for both established dimensionless groups, like the Strouhal number, and for mathematically distinct entities that happen to have the same units, like torque (a vector product) versus energy (a scalar product).
Don't tamper with SI-unit consistency (2017) - https://doi.org/10.1038%2F549160d
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What's surprising is that these discussions are so recent, considering the wide implications on so much practical work in mechanics and engineering. Maybe people got so used to working around the question, that any proposed solution would be too disruptive - so it's better to keep things backward compatible rather than conceptually simple/clear and explicit.
In another comment someone said, "types" (in programming and type theory, I'd guess) are a poor model of physics units. But I wonder about that, it seems "units" are something like types with associated quantities, like degrees with 360, or meters with the speed of light.
This line of inquiry also led me to "dimensionless physical constants". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_physical_constan...
Certainly pi (and e) must be one of those fundamental constants regardless of any unit of measurement. A "turn", on the other hand - well, if we consider 1 as a dimensionless constant that means a "whole"..
How Many Fundamental Constants Are There? (2011) John Baez https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/constants.html
I think the fact that action and angular momentum have the same units played an illuminating role in making sense in Bohr's model regarding why only certain orbits are allowed.
Not sure how that would play out once angle is considered a fundamental entity.
This sure is a rabbit hole.
Thanks for your submission
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372847
hope it gets picked up.
But that's more for analysis of your code / formulas than when you actually go and compute things.
Dimensionless, sure, but what do you mean here? Radians and degrees are units, are they not?
And for APIs, you could reasonably well have turns or radians or degrees or even percentage of turns, whatever -- it depend on the context what is 'better'. What's really missing, I think, is the support of units in programming languages (in the type system) so that you cannot mess up when invoking sin()/cos(), because you would be forced to provide a unit.
You can parameterized the motion in terms of the time T to complete one period and consider it's horizontal (or vertical) shadow at any t mod T.
This is related to DFT. As one increases the number of vertices of the regular polygon we will recover sin and cos in the limit. 2 \pi will show up in the ratio of the distance covered in one period of the uniform speed motion and the extents of the projected motion.
Another interesting (and fundamental) construction is to forget about circles and polygons entirely. Simply consider a periodic function over a bounded length L. Consider first the discrete case where the domain is divided into k parts. We want to find an orthonormal basis for all nicely behaved (smooth) periodic functions on this domain.
But there are infinitely many orthonormal basis sets for periodic functions on this domain. We are free to choose any. One choice is that adjacent values do not have large adjacent differences. This can be measured by squared adjacent differences. We choose that basis set that minimizes this quantity.
For the discrete case we recover DFT basis and taking limits carefully we end up with sinusoids.
\Pi will show up because of the requirement of orthonormality.
The SI unit for frequency after all is Hertz - cycles per second - which should really be considered equal to 2pi s^-1, but for complicated reasons, often isn’t, and most formulae that involve frequency ignore the ‘cycle’ - or it’s also hiding inside the definition of something like the wavelength or the Planck constant where it cancels out.
Meanwhile the SI unit for angular velocity is radians per second which is dimensionally equivalent to s^-1.
That said a becquerel, which measures rate of discrete events, is also dimensionally s^-1. (Next time you are measuring traffic to your website consider using the appropriate SI unit for measuring requests per second: the Becquerel.) - so dimensional equivalence isn’t the same as equivalence. You wouldn’t add a rate to a frequency, same as you probably shouldn’t add a torque to an amount of energy.
Great idea, I will definitely do this!
For general periodic functions, [0, 1) is a good domain. But circles and spheres are geometric objects, and radians/steradians are geometrically significant units that are well suited for general purposes.
I do remember that Doom uses an interesting alternative representation where an angle is a u16 multiple of `(2 * pi) / 65536`. Fixed point is sometimes a good choice in games and simulations due to having uniform precision.
If you don't use radians you have to add to add conversion factors everywhere to do calculus. Radians are the natural unit for sin/cos just as E is the natural base of the logarithm and exponential functions.
"The intrinsic functions ACOSPI, ASINPI, ATANPI, ATAN2PI, COSPI, SINPI, and TANPI are trigonometric functions in which angles are specified in halfrevolutions (that is, as multiples of π)."