Top
Best
New

Posted by 0xedb 1 hour ago

The August 17 outage, and the work ahead(github.blog)
43 points | 62 comments
ivraatiems 59 minutes ago|
"We are committed to fixing these problems, as long as it doesn't involve buying things other than AI computers, hiring humans, or using non-Microsoft products."

Calling Azure the solution to this problem when it is in fact the source of most of these problems is just fantastic doublespeak.

Github is ripe for disruption and I hope it is disrupted soon.

dcrazy 55 minutes ago||
> We installed as much hardware as available power allowed in our existing data centers while accelerating our migration to Azure.

And from the RCA [1]:

> The immediate cause of the failure was network saturation on load balancers in Central US due to a new peak in traffic.

[1]: https://www.githubstatus.com/incidents/zkxwbgr0cnmx

ivraatiems 51 minutes ago||
"While accelerating our migration to Azure," meaning, they will only solve problems if it helps them also use Azure more.

It is unbelivable that aload of 2.8b commits was totally fine, and a load of 2.9b was a sitewide outage, unless they have no reporting or their tooling is completely incompetent. If things can fall apart so easily, throwing more capacity at the problem won't fix it.

dcrazy 50 minutes ago|||
You’re torturing your own logic to make Azure the villain here. And it also sounds like you lack experience with capacity exhaustion. Things fail slowly, then suddenly.
ivraatiems 49 minutes ago||
No, I am calling Github disingenuous liars with poor motives, offering an unbelivable explanation. Not sure where the torture is, except in their statement.

If it was failing slowly, why didn't they fix it then? Why didn't they notice?

Could it be because they fired all the people who know how to monitor and identify such problems? That's what SREs are for.

dcrazy 48 minutes ago||
Baseless accusation made from a position of zero information.
ivraatiems 45 minutes ago||
Opinion based on stated facts.

Please share the information you have which contradicts the conclusions I have drawn from Github's statement.

(And we know they're liars. They report very few of the actual incidents they have; see for example https://mrshu.github.io/github-statuses/)

dcrazy 40 minutes ago||
I don’t owe you anything, much less a separately sourced counterargument. You openly admit that your opinion is not based not on GitHub’s proffered statements but on your self-admitted assumption that GitHub is actively lying in an attempt to cover up an Azure-related root cause.
cyberax 40 minutes ago||||
This absolutely can happen in large systems. If some part of the system is at capacity, then slightly increasing the load can cause it to fall behind and start accumulating a backlog.

These backlogs can cause clients to make more retries, exacerbating the problem. Potentially further cascading through the system.

Kinrany 35 minutes ago||
I believe their point is that "system is at capacity" is something they ought to start fixing before the capacity is exceeded
dcrazy 31 minutes ago|||
But then people like OP will claim that the capacity concerns are a lie manufactured to support an unjustified move to Azure.
cyberax 16 minutes ago|||
Sure. But you might not even be realizing that something is just at the cusp if the load is spiky enough.

The art of large system design is to identify and avoid these kinds of chokepoints. And when something happens, propagate the "backpressure" up the stack to avoid queuing.

AWS got a fair share of similar outages, so the newer SDKs now try to not exacerbate these kinds of issues: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/sdkref/latest/guide/feature-retr...

The original AWS EBS outage is probably the canonical example: https://aws.amazon.com/message/65648/

rcleveng 35 minutes ago|||
There's always a cliff, this part is fine. You sometimes know the cliff but often do not.
bpavuk 40 minutes ago|||
I'm betting on Tangled and Codeberg. Tangled has a better press and in general is a dark horse, Codeberg has the "brand" and some network effects from projects that moved to there. (famously, Zig.) I heard that Sourcehut is having a moment as well, and I love the idea of email-based workflow and not having to have an account to contribute to someone's project hosted there, but I'm not maintaining anything worthwhile paying the $4/mo sub.
kjellsbells 36 minutes ago|||
Ok, but there's no universe where a major Microsoft-owned property is not being forced to run on Azure. Just like AWS pushing to get off Oracle back in the day. It would be career-destroying to suggest otherwise regardless of technical merit (and tbf, no infrastructure is bulletproof, unless you want to port GitHub to z/OS on mainframe)
mort96 56 minutes ago|||
If you're a big company, you can afford having one engineer spend one or two days per year to maintain your self-hosted GitLab or Forgejo. On top of better reliability than GitHub, you'll get the additional bonus that your source code won't accidentally leak through being in Copilot's training set.

If you're a hobbyist, Codeberg is great, has a nice community and automatically shields you from slop contributions.

ivraatiems 54 minutes ago|||
The issue with these systems is that they lack Github's sophistication for issue tracking, knowledge transfer, and automation. I think Gitlab is a mature product in its own space and unlikey to change, for instance, at this point.

Codeberg also has the issue of having a political stance which means they will not accept just anyone's use of the platform. That is absolutely their right and I have no issue with it, but it's unattractive to me - as someone who agrees with most of their current politics - because the day they decide they don't like me, I'm screwed.

mort96 46 minutes ago|||
I never found GitHub's systems for issue tracking to be all that great. Cross-repository issues and development plans are hard to track within a git host. I've always used an external panning and issue tracking tool, mostly Linear, and it works really well. GitLab's Linear integration is excellent, FWIW.

I've actually worked with a couple of companies who do use GitHub for their code, and they all use Linear in addition to GitHub.

I understand the concern you're talking about wrt. Codeberg, but I wouldn't view it as a significantly bigger risk than anything else. Any platform can suddenly decide that your project is against ToS (GitHub will absolutely not accept just anyone's use of their platform either) and Codeberg introducing some rules recently doesn't, in my mind, drastically increase the risk of a dramatic ToS change in the future. But we all have to make our own risk evaluations and I won't judge yours. Luckily, moving between Git hosts isn't that difficult; setting up CI again and losing merge request history does suck but it's not the end of the world, unlike something like, say, losing your AWS/GCP/whatever account.

Shish2k 35 minutes ago||||
"sophistication" seems like a strange way to describe GitHub to me - I've found in every individual aspect (code browsing, issue tracking, code review, package management, etc), it's the worst out of all the systems I use regularly... But it's good _enough_ for most people, and it has all those features in one place, which is more convenient than wrangling 10-15 high quality but disconnected systems
rcleveng 34 minutes ago|||
Gitlab has the benefit of having very little traffic, both free and paid. Their limits are still way above the current usage so less likely to be an issue
unrented7977 33 minutes ago|||
Speaking from experience, it cost mW about a week or two per year to maintain GitLab for the startup I worked at.

My personal GitLab on the other hand really does take only a day or two per year.

That said, a week or two per year is just what it costs to maintain any one thing period. I spent about that much time maintaining PCs in the office, or my personal proxmox setup. It's not onerous at all.

GitLab is super bloated and a little sucky to admin, but it's not too bad all things considered. I'm admin in my new job's GitHub org and it sucks a whole lot more to maintain.

awesome_dude 49 minutes ago||
> Github is ripe for disruption and I hope it is disrupted soon.

It's an expensive, low revenue generating site.

There are, and have always been, competitors, including "host it all yourself" solutions, but nothing has really stuck.

How is it "ripe" for disruption?

ivraatiems 47 minutes ago||
They had $1b revenue in 2023 and now probably more than $2b in revenue... do you have cost figures showing what their expenses are?
bluedino 44 minutes ago|||
> We have since added more than 3 million CPU cores, 120 petabytes of high-speed storage, and significant network capacity. We installed as much hardware as available power allowed in our existing data centers while accelerating our migration to Azure.

That can't be cheap.

cyberax 30 minutes ago||
A server box now has around 256 CPU cores. So that's about 12000 servers. If each one is $10k that's $120 million. Not a lot compared to Github's income.
bluedino 22 minutes ago||
Does that $10k server not need RAM?
awesome_dude 40 minutes ago|||
Microsoft don't release the costs as you know, but

Compute and Storage for Free Tiers: Hosting code for over 150 million developers and processing over 2 billion GitHub Actions (CI/CD) workflows a month requires astronomical server power and data storage. The "Free" tier is a massive cost sink that Microsoft treats as a loss-leader marketing expense

Let me know when you understand how that's not free.

blakesterz 57 minutes ago||

  "Since April, monthly commits have grown from 1.4 billion to 2.9 billion. "
Wow, that is some incredible growth in a really short time.
brookst 43 minutes ago|
It really is. I know I've gone from tens a month to thousands a month. They have to be projecting >100B/month in the next year or two.
xyzsparetimexyz 30 minutes ago||
wow. they should really institute a maximum amount of individual pushes per-month per-user.
jdm2212 55 minutes ago||
> Errors in those services triggered a client-side retry loop that increased traffic during recovery.

The worst outages I've been part of always have some version of this :(

k33P1Tr3aL 45 minutes ago|
the 'ol thundering herd problem...
pixl97 36 minutes ago||
Exponential backoff is your friend... too few people use it.
kjuulh 26 minutes ago||
Reading this port-mortem / plan shocks me, this doesn't look like a service that has been serving high-throughput services for more than a decade. In fact it is almost like they've barely started. It seems the solution has been capacity, capacity rather than architectural or data changes.

> Our next milestone is an architecture that scales read capacity linearly with the number of readers, enabling unlimited read operations

How do you not have read-replicas / read caches at this scale yet? Which is what I am reading from this statement. You can of course get really far with sharding and whatnot. But at some point it might become worth it to engineer your data into a model that scales better.

dpweb 37 minutes ago||
Sorry to suggest this but if they charged everyone say $1/mo. it would absolutely help the massive surge from AI coding they seem to have had.

I don't like paying for free stuff but gh certainly worth it.

Shish2k 27 minutes ago||
Unfortunately time and time again, the overwhelming majority of people show that they would rather deal with an unreliable scummy company for "free" than pay $1/mo for a reliable service which treats them with respect :(
chrisjj 18 minutes ago||
Surely that's the point. Shed users.
dcrazy 30 minutes ago||
Pay per issue and commit. Buy 1,000 commit credits at a time.

Might force people to review their slop before pushing it.

sajithdilshan 25 minutes ago||
The comments just shows how entitled people have become. Most people use GitHub and features for free and have the audacity to complain.

The outage is due to massive load increase. In 4 months the number of commits doubled to 2.9 Billions. Anyone worked with high load systems knows that’s it’s not a normal growth and how difficult even to keep on horizontally scaling in a short time period such a complex system.

GitHub should charge at least maybe 5$ monthly fee and most of the entitled freeloaders would leave the platform and it would free up resources

yipinwong 48 minutes ago||
AWS CloudWatch has an option to show the trend and what it will be like after x-period.

Doesn't Azure have such options so that engineers can predict to scale better? Seems like engineers are not ready for this per postmortem

jdm2212 45 minutes ago|
The trend line does not tell you what will actually happen at scale, even if you think you're perfectly prepared for the next 10% or 20% growth. As Mike Tyson put it, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".
rawland 30 minutes ago||
dang and friends, can you lock (some) threads? This is getting out of hand, it seems to me?

GitHub outages seem to be very normal and even more emotional these days. Yet, that’s no reason to treat each other destructively. It’s sad.

So let’s turn this energy into creating something better.

rcleveng 44 minutes ago||
Great read - I'm glad they realize there's work ahead but what I'm missing is: * Paid customers: we know you pay us often a ton of money, and we burn your month on actions during these outages - we'll refund you for the days we spent your money and gave you no value. * Paid customer: We know you put your trust in us, so we'll ensure we have a separate pool of capacity to ensure we can keep that trust. * Paid customer: we'll proactively refund you when we miss our SLA.

What I read from this is: * Scaling is hard, we don't have enough capacity * We give away a shitton of compute for free * I have to talk about Azure not being a steaming pile of poop, otherwise my bonus will get tweaked downward in the next comp cycle.

Notice there's nothing about paid customers, I'll add in what they are missing:

Paid customers: Go F*ck yourself, you don't pays us enough to be an interesting line item compared to windows server.

rcleveng 40 minutes ago|
[dead]
iSloth 33 minutes ago|
Has to be one of the most vague outage summaries of the year
dcrazy 28 minutes ago||
The root cause analysis is separate, but linked to from the blog post: https://www.githubstatus.com/incidents/zkxwbgr0cnmx

It is specific and technical.

More comments...