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Posted by underdeserver 1 day ago

Stop Making TUIs(sockpuppet.org)
364 points | 472 commentspage 6
jmorenoamor 1 day ago|
No. I like them.
danpalmer 1 day ago|
What do you like about them? I disagree, but so many people seem to like them that I assume I'm missing something. The main one I've heard before is that they work nicely over SSH, but I assume there must be more?
nimih 1 day ago|||
I personally like making (and using) TUIs because:

- They encourage developing simpler, information-dense, and keyboard-driven interfaces, which I tend to prefer in general.

- I find them more fun to write, and less aggravating to maintain and debug, than interfaces built with GUI toolkits.

- Most software I write for personal use is going to be run in both a Linux and Mac OS environment (and a lot of the time on a headless server to boot), and a TUI often has less fuss than other options (at least, IME).

- I think monospaced text in a terminal just looks cool.

annapanna 1 day ago|||
But you can't really do information dense when you are limited to a fixed grid of monospaced character glyphs. Variable width fonts are much more information dense for example.
nimih 1 day ago|||
By "information dense," I meant in contrast to what is typical in modern GUIs: generous borders and margins between interface elements, large buttons, etc. My experience both using and writing TUIs is that, because of the extreme limitations of your tools w/r/t styling and layout, more of the screen real estate tends to be devoted to displaying data, and on whole I prefer that.

YMMV, of course, I'm just sharing my own experience and perspective.

croon 1 day ago|||
I prefer TUIs personally, but I can't see myself use maps, or visual image editing in a TUI for example, but is vi infinitely faster than vscode for manipulating a codebase? Absolutely.

Anything that lends itself to keyboard input, piping, text manipulation and a bunch of other things are so much faster if you're equally proficient in both input modes.

beej71 1 day ago|||
I think the "fun as hell to write and use" angle is underrepresented in the comments—thanks for bringing it up.

It is, of course, completely subjective, but I know there are a fair number of people out there who agree with that statement.

barnabee 1 day ago||||
IMHO the rise of TUIs is heavily correlated with the near-abandonment of professional quality graphical interfaces.

If there was a powerful, information dense, configurable docking/tiling, multi-application-composing GUI framework (all things a good terminal can do) then yes, build everything in that. I’d love to see it.

Until then, TUIs are vastly better than another Electron app or Mac app using UI frameworks that are trying their hardest to look and act like basic phone apps.

funlang 11 hours ago|||
Yeah, I feel the same. Most modern GUIs waste so much space and hide actions behind hamburger menus – TUIs just get out of my way and let me work fast. I’ll take a well‑made TUI over a sluggish Electron app any day.
anon7000 14 hours ago|||
Nailed it. As the blog post says, GUI’s aren’t normally written for nerds. They exist, but it’s not normal.

So even professional tools all follow industry design and product trends which are too simplistic, don’t give you the info you need, and are optimized for abstract brand design or chasing metrics for the company, and not optimized for “how do I let my user accomplish their task as fast as possible”

mrheosuper 1 day ago||||
Lightweight and can run over ssh are 2 main reasons i like them.
Linux-Fan 8 hours ago||||
I use the terminal for most things which are not web browsing hence for me it makes sense to prefer TUIs for "lightweight" GUI needs.

I love how I have to configure font size and family only once in the terminal emulator and not for each program/GUI toolkit again.

Of course, there is no way to replace graphical-heavy programs (GIMP, QGIS etc.) with TUIs.

<https://masysma.net/37/why_terminal.xhtml>

takluyver 1 day ago||||
In addition to what other people have said, the terminal interface is cross-platform and very stable, so TUIs need little or no maintenance to keep working.
Kon5ole 10 hours ago||||
I also like them so I can mention some things that spring to mind:

- Some are very good tools that have no clear GUI superiors. Vim, Emacs, Mc for example. GUI wrappers over these don't make them better.

- Efficient, meaning fast and limited in scope so you can learn the whole thing.

- The muscle memory you develop is transferable to any new platform or OS you use.

- Often free and OSS so they can't be taken away, making the muscle memory a long-term investment.

- If you work in the terminal for any other reason there's less context switch.

bcrl 8 hours ago||
Muscle memory and awful connectivity in remote places (well, not even that remote for me) is what so many GUI apps undervalue, and I don't think the author of the article has ever thought of or encountered this. I loved TUIs back in the '80s and '90s when convention was so consistent across applications that muscle memory transferred seamlessly. Plus one could use a mouse to select menu options or the keyboard (like the many Microsoft programming environments like QuickBASIC, QuickC, Microsoft C as well as competitor products like Turbo Pascal and many others).

The low bandwidth / high latency lossy link problem is still a major issue. Cell phone service is sufficiently shitty in the area I live in that I have to use mosh to get a usable remote connection many times a year. Mosh is also quite useful while travelling! Got a crappy connection on a train or airplane? No problem. I have so much muscle memory with the mutt email client that nothing else has ever come close. Where's the equivalent of mutt's limit command in Thunderbird?

Try getting a usable VNC session when your cell phone hot spot is hitting 2-30 second ping times (yes -- thirty seconds) with only a handful of packets getting through.

Version 2 of the Amiga's operating system did a great thing in version 2 of AmigaOS which explicitly spelled out what conventions to apply (see Amiga User Interface Style Guide at https://archive.org/details/amiga-user-interface-style-guide). Modern GUIs that have weird meaningless buttons are infuriating. Even moreso when they lack obvious keyboard shortcuts.

TurboHaskal 1 day ago||||
I don't think TUIs are inherently better but some are simply too good versus the alternative. magit and k9s for example.
anon7000 14 hours ago||
Also CLI args to TUI are very useful. Like the k9s command flag to take you to any view. It feels more immediate than launching a separate app from the terminal
duskdozer 1 day ago||||
(other user) in my typical experience:

- keyboard can be used for pretty much everything

- less visually busy (no/less animations, background images/color variations. often close to plain text on plain background)

- more information dense (fewer things hidden behind hamburger menus, modals, drawers, etc)

- more/more easily customizable and documented

- more often can provide data directly into the terminal that I'm working in, so don't need to copy/paste through windows etc

these aren't necessarily impossible for GUI or universally true for TUI, but maybe I would guess just more an artifact of there being types of people who prefer working in the terminal who are then more likely to make TUIs, and I share their preferences more.

jmorenoamor 1 day ago||||
A good UI can be text, graphic, voice, etc.

I enjoy the usability and self perceived speed of not having to leave the console or reach the mouse to move a pointer when a cople of key presees is enough.

It's a matter of choice, I know, but I also think there is a genuine case for text over graphics. I see it everyday on businesses that keep old cobol tpvs at the cash, the speed at which the clercks check inventories or perform other crm activities is unmatched to mouse or touch interfaces

skeledrew 1 day ago||||
It's easier to automate TUIs, since it's just text.
benj111 1 day ago||
Nit. Surely it would be keyboard navigation? Your macro can consist of the key presses you would actually use, rather than trying to describe mouse movement.

If you want to automate from the perspective of what's on screen, tuis have no metadata. A button in a gui does have metadata associated with it, so you could automate 'click button x' where as in a TUI you'd be limited to clicking 'position x,y'

skeledrew 1 day ago||
You don't really need metadata to automate in a terminal. Literally everything is there in the clear and ANSI is used for control. It's all characters; no need to think about pixels (I made something that automates TUIs[0] BTW.

For GUIs you have to handle the particular metadata of a given framework, if it exposes metadata at all for the controls. Otherwise you're dealing with raw pixels which is an instant nightmare, though not so much now there are visual LLMs, but you're still paying for the tokens and/or extra processing.

[0] https://gitlab.com/skeledrew/jaiver

benj111 1 day ago||
Ah ok. I was thinking from the perspective of automating the input, for a human to view, rather than automatically getting data out.
skeledrew 1 day ago||
Automating input is just sending character codes. It's all wonderfully simple and uniform.
catlover76 7 hours ago|||
[dead]
alerighi 1 day ago||
To me TUI have a better user experience than graphical applications. And considering the amount of companies that are still using decades old AS/400 systems instead of new ERP system I'm probably not the only one to think it like this.

First, a TUI is usable with only the keyboard. Moving the mouse is a waste of time, and if you are using an application multiple hours a day, it can lead to being more productive.

Second, a TUI has no useless animations, elements, etc. It's not pretty, you have on the screen only the stuff you need to do your job, and you are not distracted by useless elements.

Third, a TUI works beautifully in a client/server world, where you have one central computer and dumb clients that connects to it, and the connection can be a simple serial connection as well as a network connection. It can be rendered even with an ESP32, making it suitable for embedded HMIs and all kind of computing scenarios.

Lastly, the user can choose the font, the colors, the size of the font that are best for him, usually a monospace font that it's surely better to read information multiple hours a day.

To me it's the opposite, GUI interfaces were born to make it intuitive to use a computer, but are not as efficient as TUI in terms of productivity.

codethief 1 day ago||
> First, a TUI is usable with only the keyboard.

Is it? Many TUIs these days don't allow me to configure my usual key bindings for moving my cursor within input fields. Meanwhile, GTK offers (used to offer) a way to customize key bindings across all GTK applications. (Unfortunately, they removed that feature in recent versions. Now I understand why people always get so upset about the GNOME devs…)

benj111 1 day ago||
The real shame though is that you can make gui apps efficient.

I've used the same systems you describe, except in gui form.

And the thing is, with this kind of application, everyone has a different 20% that they spend 80% of their time using. Guis can be as good as the TUI in the 80%, and very handy in the 20% where you aren't so well versed.

The issue, is that guis seem to have dropped the ball with regards to efficiency.

jesse_dot_id 1 day ago||
I'm a fan of a TUI, I think because they are usually pretty intuitive out of necessity. I can usually feel the developer's skill level in the user experience.
rixrax 14 hours ago||
"Q: Son, what is window manager needed for? A: Running multiple terminals on one display."
laktak 14 hours ago|
tmux
hiAndrewQuinn 1 day ago||
I like TUIs, and I chose to build e.g. https://taskusanakirja.com/ as a TUI for a couple of reasons, some of which are in this article and some not. Cross platform compatibility was a big one since at the time I started building it I didn't actually have a Windows or Mac machine handy to test this out.

One thing I think which is overlooked is the raw feeling of speed a good TUI can give you. The lowest grade consumer laptop could probably download my little dictionary program and still get true search-on-keystroke performance, because there is virtually nothing slowing down that path, no animations, no nothing. Now most of that comes down to the data structures involved and making sure nothing ever has to go over a network, but I still appreciate the sheer simplicity of the approach.

It's also nice to know that I can probably recompile this same exact code 50 years from now and still get it to run exactly as intended, since GUI frameworks have waxed and wanted in popularity, but terminals truly don't seem to be going anywhere.

lelanthran 1 day ago|
> One thing I think which is overlooked is the raw feeling of speed a good TUI can give you. The lowest grade consumer laptop could probably download my little dictionary program and still get true search-on-keystroke performance, because there is virtually nothing slowing down that path, no animations, no nothing. Now most of that comes down to the data structures involved and making sure nothing ever has to go over a network, but I still appreciate the sheer simplicity of the approach.

Recently, I posted a GUI mp3 playing program written purely in Tcl/Tk using shell scripts for some things. On my 2011 desktop, filtering for a specific mp3 across all the mp3s stored on my computer (about 80GB of mp3s) takes single-digit milliseconds. I can only imagine what a modern desktop, with an SSD, will do!

GUI apps don't have to be laggy. My Qt and Lazarus apps aren't laggy at all, and are far more snappy and responsive than the clear majority of TUIs I use (like CC).

cube2222 1 day ago||
Yeah, I think I agree with this. I think making GUIs and reverse engineering proprietary APIs are two things that frontier models make really pleasant - e.g. I made a menu-bar app (very similar to your temperatures dropdown, similar graph, SwiftUI) which connects via bluetooth to my Inkbird CO2 sensor, graphs the CO2 level over time, and looks fabulous.

The skills are useful, thanks for linking them! They'll be useful for my future projects like this. FWIW I've had good luck with using Claude Design first to do mocks.

At the same time, I think there's still the "is this worth doing a hyper-customized version of this software, if I'm also then responsible for fixing the bugs?". But I think increasingly as we improve our agentic workflows and make them more self-contained loops driving the result to completion, this becomes kind of a non-issue.

In general, I do think LLMs are bringing about a new age of hyper-customization, which I welcome.

lawnchair 12 hours ago||
> Our field has a weird relationship with terminal and command line interfaces. The time has come to re-evaluate it.

I like chocolate I like vanilla

yayitswei 5 hours ago||
One point for TUIs I haven't seen mentioned: they're faster for coding agents to iterate on. No need for screenshots or computer use. Agents have made GUIs cheap, but have made TUIs even cheaper, both to build and verify.
smcleod 1 day ago||
I absolutely love TUIs, they can live in a pane in my terminal, run via SSH on remote machines, use hardly any resources and are very flexible.
arthurfirst 6 hours ago|
Just like MCP is for Desktop users and useless otherwise -- GUIs are a solution to a created problem.. of users not being able to read and write very well because they don't practice.

Terminal, coding, and even prompt writing skills are language skills.

If you cannot use a terminal properly you are basically an appliance user. Like a toaster operator.

TUIs are not for everyone by design.

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