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Posted by throw7 4 hours ago

Grand jury declines to indict Ohio man charged with destroying Flock camera(san.com)
477 points | 255 commentspage 3
superkuh 4 hours ago|
This is only fair play given the cities and DAs around the country have refused to indict or prosecute Flock surveillance when they break the law.
parineum 2 hours ago|
When did they do that?
yipinwong 2 hours ago||
Now this has set a bad precedence for the broken window. People will start destroying flock cameras without any consequences.

My tax $ went into buying and setting up those cameras to monitor bad seeds in my neighborhood.

kevin_thibedeau 1 hour ago|
How did society ever function when we didn't have technological interventions to spy on everyone?
buellerbueller 4 hours ago||
Good. Let the techbros understand we don't want a surveillance state.
jvanderbot 4 hours ago||
I agree.

However the agent here with the power is the state and local and federal government. They're just going to do drones next if they can't do sensor masts.

Everyone who authorized this funding needs to be voted out. If we really care the signal is to take away the power of people who decided to use this.

skinfaxi 4 hours ago|||
> Everyone who authorized this funding needs to be voted out. If we really care the signal is to take away the power of people who decided to use this.

Yes, and we should continue to nullify convictions for activists fighting this technology on the streets. If they use drones lets shoot them down and nullify those charges too. The court is the final stand and juries are where we the citizens have actual power.

pluralmonad 4 hours ago||||
I think my vote might be broken. It keeps not working.
AndrewKemendo 4 hours ago||
Try power cycling the system
skinfaxi 4 hours ago||
Hah, as if power allows vacuums.
recursivedoubts 4 hours ago|||
If voting made a difference they wouldn't let us do it.

Stop blaming the victims.

saghm 3 hours ago|||
Can you be more specific? Are you claiming that the winner is not actually whoever gets the most votes (e.g. voter fraud, corrupt vote counting), or that someone who would not authorize something like this would literally not be allowed to show up on the ballot? Those are the only two scenarios I can think of that would result in the conclusion you're stating.

As far as I can tell, people who claim the former are almost overwhelming the ones voting for the people who are worst about stuff like this. I've honestly never seen anyone claim the latter though, so if that's what you believe, elaborating more would be helpful.

bandofthehawk 3 hours ago|||
The candidate would literally not be allowed to show up on the ballot, and it happens regularly. For an example, look what happened to Butch Ware in the California election recently.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3 hours ago||||
> or that someone who would not authorize something like this would literally not be allowed to show up on the ballot?

I'm surprised that you've never encountered this persepective before, it seems a very common one to me.

The first thing I think about is the South Park episode in which the elementary school had to vote for a school mascot and they were given the choice of either "a giant douche" or "a turd sandwich".

The second thing is another South Park episode (circa 2009), for which they actually produced two episodes (and aired one) for the Presidential election between McCain and Obama. Regardless of who would win, the plot was the same: the winner colludes with the loser in a National Treasure-style heist, with the election just being part of the setup.

In the latter example, the message seems to be that it doesn't matter who wins because the same outcomes occur. The former example probably doesn't need explaining.

Anyway, yeah, it would be nice to choose something better than a turd sandwich but when the other option is a giant douche, what is there to do? The way I see it, you either vote for someone who you know stands no chance (Jill Stein, btw), don't vote at all, or vote for the turd sandwich (or the giant douche, if that's your persuasion).

saghm 45 minutes ago||
I guess I wasn't clear: I'm aware there are people who think that the choice doesn't really matter. That's very different than people literally being blocked from appearing on the ballots at all (which some people in sibling comments have cited some references to I'll need to look into more), and even that's different from them refusing to count votes and declare a winner if they did actually receive the most votes but don't fit the status quo.

As far as the one real-world example you gave goes, I'm not convinced that someone who feels the need to avoid making definitive statements about whether vaccines cause autism is a great example of someone who wants to effect meaningful change rather than play the politics game, but that's mostly an orthogonal point.

RobotToaster 3 hours ago|||
The last person to stand for president who managed to get political momentum and wanted real change in the system was Eugene Debs, and they arrested him.
iamnothere 3 hours ago||
Two others:

Bernie Sanders (prevented from winning the primary via unelected superdelegates)

Ross Perot (suddenly withdrew under murky circumstances and later claimed his family was threatened)

Both wanted significant change, although they were reformists rather than revolutionaries.

runako 1 hour ago||
Am I missing something here? Perot was on the ballot in 1992, and he won a bunch of votes. IIRC he was the most successful independent candidate in modern times, by vote count.

Sanders ran an insurgent campaign while denigrating the party, and didn't win more votes. I seriously don't understand the argument that the person with fewer votes should win the nomination, although I am receptive to hearing a coherent articulation thereof. (Superdelegates did not enter the picture until tens of millions of votes were cast, with Sanders trailing by millions of votes.)

iamnothere 28 minutes ago||
Perot dropped out, then reentered the race at the last minute. This cost him a lot of votes and the media framed him as unstable. He had many more votes before withdrawing.

Sanders was on track to win in 2015 but the media counted all superdelegates for Clinton throughout the campaign, costing him votes in later states where voters didn’t show up, assuming he lost. I guess this isn’t entirely the party’s fault and they did reform the system somewhat afterwards.

runako 5 minutes ago||
> This cost him a lot of votes and the media framed him as unstable

This was...an eminently reasonable response to Perot's own actions?

> Sanders was on track to win in 2015

Yes, like Clinton was on track to win in 2007. "On track to win" is necessarily filtered through a set of lenses that may or may not be accurate in reality. He didn't earn the votes, so he lost. There's nothing unfair about that.

Clent 3 hours ago||||
Except there are multiple efforts to make voting more difficult.
nicman23 4 hours ago|||
lol trump got voted in. i blame the voters - there are not victims here
RobotToaster 3 hours ago|||
You think Cop Kamala would've opposed flock? lol, lmao even.
SpicyLemonZest 2 hours ago||
I think memes and political bubbles are making it very hard for people to reason through the actual principles and mechanisms of democratic governance. The reason the system keeps trying to make you vote for people like "Cop Kamala" is that most Americans like the police (https://news.gallup.com/poll/690959/racial-divide-policing-n...); there's no secret set of popular anti-police candidates who some shadowy "they" aren't allowing you to vote for.
nicman23 49 minutes ago||
accountability? for MY actions?
Someone1234 3 hours ago|||
Unfortunately they may be doubling down.

Apple is rumored to be integrating cameras into AirPods[0] that are cloud connected for "AI." They supposedly won't be able to take "pictures" and "video" but will transmit essentially the same information for AI/Siri.

Between the reaction to Flock and also the Meta Glasses; I'm legitimately surprised that companies aren't reading the Tea leaves here. But, no, I guess everything needs a camera and a cloud feed of that camera's vision now.

PS - And before you say "that is just a rumor" the video file was extracted from Apple's macOS 26.7 RC that showcases how it may work.

[0] https://www.macrumors.com/2026/08/17/camera-equipped-airpods...

buellerbueller 3 hours ago||
Someone should invent something that, used in a confined space, will destroy camera sensors (but not human retinas)
senectus1 3 hours ago|||
its not you the tech bros are selling it to. its fascist politicians.
buellerbueller 3 hours ago||
Hence, the destruction, the calls for more destruction, and the lack of indictment. Seems like the people feel left, unjustifiably, out of the loop on this one.
ydat 4 hours ago||
They have the warchest. They’ll buy the politicians. Look how the populist right has failed its primaries so hard.
datsci_est_2015 4 hours ago|||
Could you elaborate? Specifically:

> Look how the populist right has failed its primaries so hard.

From my bubble (we’re all in bubbles), it seems that the populist right are in bed with the technocrat authoritarians, e.g. the Vance-Thiel connection. Losses in primaries would indicate to me that the technocrat authoritarians are not succeeding in purchasing politicians.

RobotToaster 3 hours ago|||
Look at all the dodgy business that went on around the Thomas Massie primary.
nozzlegear 3 hours ago||
Elaborate?
ydat 3 hours ago||
Massie is kinda interesting. Because he’s a sort of libertarian who ran as a republican when the right was a bit more united

But it was a strange election. The “establishment” candidate was a no name who refused to do any debates. Rarely ever seem to say much, and when he did, it was mostly just empty parroting of Trumps agenda. Maybe that’s truly what that district wanted.

What was interesting was how Massie seemed slated to win until the very end. Suddenly at the last minute, all sorts of smear ads and all kinds of (honestly very mild) accusations of personal impropriety were being slung left and right and days before the election, polls swap showing Gallrein in the lead, a complete reversal from the months before. A man I’ve never heard speak anything that wasn’t just party lines or something about being a SEAL.

Now I understand that polling isn’t always accurate. But I’ve seen the same exact thing play out nearly the same way in other recent primaries. Feels fishy.

watwut 3 hours ago||||
I read it as technocrats Vance-Thiel successfully bought populist MAGA politicians. Those then failed in primaries, because electorate including portion of maga base rejects them. The "buying politicians" step was successful.

Now they need to buy new politicians and will definitely try.

rozal 3 hours ago||
[dead]
ydat 3 hours ago|||
> From my bubble (we’re all in bubbles), it seems that the populist right are in bed with the technocrat authoritarians, e.g. the Vance-Thiel connection.

Interesting, in my bubble “populist” right refers more younger more paleo conservative types who feel betrayed by MAGA. Many of these people hate Thiel and Technocrats as much as my Marxist friends.

I’m gonna guess (and tell me if I’m wrong) the disconnect is that you may be referring to the Trump admin itself which is indeed in bed with Thiel types. Personally I don’t really bother considering them populist anymore. They seem to mostly be interested in enriching their little circle.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago||
Interesting. MAGA no longer being populist feels like a bit of a bleeding edge take. I don’t disagree necessarily, but I’m not going to put any eggs in that basket until there’s a massive swing at the voting booth both this November and in 2028.

Tea Party gave the blueprint for 21st century populist rightwing politics, eschewing much of the baggage of Bush neoconservativism. Then Trump turned the volume up to 12. I’d be surprised to see more novel populist rightwing political dynamics as it feels like the movement is running out of gas after a 16 year run (since 2010 primaries). The disillusionment is at a peak.

Cyph0n 4 hours ago||||
The warchest is not enough: the NYC mayoral election and Michigan and Florida Senate (outfunded 16:1) primaries are good examples.
anonymars 3 hours ago||
Remember, if your vote didn't matter there wouldn't be so much effort to restrict it!
iamnothere 3 hours ago|||
Interestingly, the populist left is suddenly doing well this cycle, although I don’t know if that success will carry through to the general.
NoImmatureAdHom 2 hours ago||
In addition to making it abundantly clear that we will not stand for a techno-Stasi, we need to remember to vote out the buffoons responsible for this too.
josefritzishere 3 hours ago||
This is true patriotism.
hnlqpx99l9 2 hours ago||
[dead]
fHr 3 hours ago||
I'm more pro surveillance and think a lot of people missbehaving in public need it nowadays. But even I think this Flock Quasistasi mass sutveillance stuff is going way to far. It's hard to say I love security but also privacy and the abuse potential or risks are huge as well. I'm torn.
rileymat2 2 hours ago||
Are there actually more people misbehaving in public? Outside of the covid blip, crime has generally been on a downward trend for decades. Perception certainly is that crime is out of control, but I am not sure it is true.
delecti 2 hours ago||
Yep. And crime has been on a downward trend, even despite the fact that income inequality has been rising. Crime is usually driven by a lack of opportunity; if we ever actually helped out the poor then crime would likely go down even faster.

Or we could just build more prisons I suppose.

buellerbueller 3 hours ago||
Once the data is collected, we can't get it back; it is out there forever. There are other ways to create more security.
throwfaraway135 3 hours ago||
Life is considered the highest value in the west. So let me ask you this. Is the life of a person less worth than your privacy?
Ardon 3 hours ago||
People don't think the invasion of their privacy will 1. save lives, and 2. not take lives.

Faith in governments is not only low, people are pretty sure any power governments have will be abused.

The equation is a little bigger than that, basically.

VBprogrammer 3 hours ago|||
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Benjamin Franklin
sfdlkj3jk342a 3 hours ago|||
It's obviously a balance. But if you're asking if say 1,000 lost lives per year is worth it to save the privacy of 350 million people, I would say yes.

Just look at the 10's of thousands of people who die every year so that we have the convenience of driving cars. Not to mention the millions whose health are affected by the air pollution.

dawnerd 2 hours ago||
That’s even assuming flock saves lives, which it doesn’t. Really the question should be, is giving up privacy worth it if it helps law enforcement solve a crime faster? Still don’t think so.
foltik 3 hours ago|||
False dichotomy.
estearum 2 hours ago|||
pov: a vatnik tries to understand western values
cucumber3732842 10 minutes ago|||
"how many kids have to die before you..."

All of them.

mindslight 2 hours ago|||
Your phrasing is weird. In this case, the two are not in conflict but rather symbiotic - this grand jury chose to preserve the life of the person who was being accused of protecting our privacy. There is also a good chance that privacy (evidentiary rules) helped preserve this person's life.

But also you're going to have to elaborate what you mean by life being considered the highest value. Have you seen how we treat one another? We're always looking for rationales as to why someone else's life should be considered unimportant.

antonvs 1 hour ago||
This is such a bullshit "think of the children" kind of question. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you state it in the form of an actual argument that sets up a meaningful comparison, you'll find that it falls apart completely.

Which makes me wonder, why would you ask such a question? None of the answers I can think of are flattering to you.

seethishat 3 hours ago|
Property damage is a crime.

I don't object to Flock cameras or any other public cameras. But if I did, I would write to my congress person rather than commit a crime and destroy someone's property.

gypsy_boots 3 hours ago||
weak.

There is a juggernaut of surveillance consuming everything in its path, where laws are skirted to install surveillance instruments and due process might as well not exist. And you're talking about "protecting property" and pulling out your little pen and paper to tell your congressperson "i'd like you to try this instead, please"

I'm sorry, no. You don't necessarily have to be the one taking action in the streets, by all means write your letter, but please don't criticize others and pretend that your approach will get you any further than other peoples approach

FireBeyond 1 hour ago|||
It was like this in the face of some of the BLM protests. A notable group of people were saying:

> It's terrible that an innocent black man died. But this property destruction has to stop!

when, in reality, the perspective should be much more:

"It's terrible that there is this property destruction. But these innocent deaths have to stop!"

Hyperbole, some may some reading this, "We're talking about license plate readers[1], not people being shot or killed", but let's be real, there's very much a non-zero risk of that happening as a result of Flock-spawned encounters (and to be even more real, the culture from the top, as espoused very directly by its CEO is that false positives are a better outcome, and should be how the system works, rather than a false negative, because, ugh, "false negatives don't advance our mission to a world without crime, thanks to Flock").

[1] And they do far more than recognize license plates.

AlexandrB 3 hours ago|||
This is a justification for any kind of vigilanteism. Is this also what you will tell armed righties who decide to round up illegal immigrants and shuttle them across the border to Mexico because the government is ignoring their concerns or is breaking the law because the government ignores you only reserved for your pet causes?
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3 hours ago|||
That is not inconsistent with a belief that violence against a person is worse than violence against property. It is odd to compare kidnapping a person with destroying their home security cameras.
antonvs 3 hours ago|||
Democracy operates at multiple levels. You’ll notice that armed right wingers kidnapping people suspected of being undocumented is a problem confined to the government itself. There’s a reason for that. No-one really cares about immigrants, outside of performative politics, enough to take that personal risk. If they did, we’d find out what society’s reaction is. People are unlikely to look on that as favorably as they do on petty vandalism against an undemocratic rollout of a surveillance network.
tastyfreeze 3 hours ago|||
Self governance means more that picking people to lord over you.
ungreased0675 3 hours ago|||
Writing a letter to your congressman does nothing.
hollywood_court 3 hours ago|||
Did Fox News tell you to write that?
ydat 3 hours ago||
> I would write to my congress person rather than commit a crime and destroy someone's property.

Your congressman is having a nice steak dinner with representatives of the company while some poor staffer pastes the generic response in the letter sent back to you.

JohnTHaller 3 hours ago||
Or getting their debts paid off by shady right-wing groups