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Posted by hn_acker 23 hours ago

OTel isn’t going well(matduggan.com)
190 points | 89 comments
osener 10 hours ago|
I like the end result of OpenTelemetry tracing when using Axiom and the like, but the SDKs have been a nightmare. Too much emphasis on automatic instrumentation, Java-isms, everything is stateful and abstracted away.

It can do distributed tracing of otherwise traditional long running microservices, but breaks down when your functions are distributed like in durable execution engines, Cloudflare Workflows, “functions” that span hours/days/weeks and steps that retry many times.

I had to reverse engineer how SDKs work and how tracing UIs display data so I could make simpler functions that fit wider variety of runtimes and more freely parent spans, start spans and end them from different function instances.

I think most of the API and terminology complexity is self inflicted. Would love to see a rebooted developer experience that is less Kubernates-brained.

Groxx 4 minutes ago||
Yeah, they spent a ton of effort trying to cram automatic-config-and-library-discovery-like features everywhere when they would've been MUCH better served by requiring explicit dependency injection... and then just adding DI wrappers.

As it stands, due to the tower of abstractions that could've just been "init with an implementation of this interface", you need to learn several pieces and how they work together (hint: convoluted and horrifically inefficiently) to modify any piece, and inevitably you learn that to get what you want, you need to swap out all of it... but doing that while maintaining the auto-registry nonsense is a gigantic effort. If it's even possible.

It is the new poster-child for "design by committee". It's horrific. Unfortunately it's also usually the best option in large setups. I greatly approve of the high level goal, but omfg

kalkin 2 hours ago|||
The article assumes the issue with OTel is slow feature development, which isn't my experience at all. The issue I've had is that the SDKs have terrible performance overhead for instrumentation and are, as you say, highly resistant to integrating the output of better performing (or just preexisting) instrumentation. In Python and Ruby, at least, the CPU cost of all the mandatory abstraction is way too high.
ksajadi 59 minutes ago|||
Totally agree. However I am hopeful. We started the first full instrumented project a few years back. It took us a long time to do the whole work including understanding the SDK, mapping the dimensions and getting everything right. Our last project we did the whole thing with agents and they really took away a lot of the pain from the implementation part. We also use Axiom MCP so when we need some trace or event in the logs the agents look for it and if they don’t find it they’ll add it for the next time. It’s really been a different experience.
jcmfernandes 5 hours ago|||
Ran into the same issue and didn't find any willingness in the OTEL gods to close this gap.
PunchyHamster 1 hour ago|||
Even just basic wire protocol is ass that's PITA to parse, like list of attibutes (which have to be unique) isn't a map but array of maps with some weird way to encode key and type. The whole project is industrial scale mediocrity
phrotoma 6 hours ago|||
I tried to emit metrics from a python app using otel once. Gave up and switched to prometheus. What a nightmare.
jandrewrogers 1 hour ago||
OpenTelemetry reminds me a lot of the bad old days when Java/XML maximalism was fashionable.
dijit 33 minutes ago||
I know sadly very little about otel, it feels “heavy” in a way I am not used to, I am used to simple systems - configured and composed in a way that makes a larger system.

20 years ago, we were doing (what I think) OTel is doing: with “hit IDs” (half way between a session and a request) that were consistently applied when logging the cause a request being fired; along centralised logging and really good timekeeping. Essentially a unique identifier as a tag that followed the request as it passed through the system.

This was enough to debug basically any problem.

We could even measure the distance between requests of the same “hit” and the total wall-time before it managed to return through the load balancer, so we could track our p99 easily.

Though truthfully we didn't make pretty graphs.

I sometimes wonder what OTel gives me more than this, but I work in games now and lots of these things that work well in webdev do not apply at all to our problems.

EdSchouten 14 hours ago||
What always puzzles me about OpenTelemetry is that tracing, metrics and logs are all designed independently. I wish there was a way I could just annotate my code base once, and let the ultimate decision to expose something as a metric/log/trace be dynamic at runtime.

For example, if I look at a graph in monitoring dashboard and see something suspicious, I’d like to say: “The next time something like this occurs again, please save me a trace.” I should be able to just do that with a single mouse click.

I remember them releasing the tracing spec/SDKs and saying “now let’s move on to metrics/logs.” That never sat right with me.

fuzzy2 10 hours ago||
I just don’t get this sentiment. How would you represent metrics as traces? You cannot. Even reconstructing traces from logs would be challenging at best. How would you get, say, Garbage Collector metrics from logs or traces? You cannot.

There is no magic bullet. Observability isn’t something you can just slap on and call it a day. While traces and logs might share superficial similarities, they are not the same. And metrics are something else altogether. Trying to somehow unify them would be a prime example of "wrong abstraction".

> “The next time something like this occurs again, please save me a trace.”

The building blocks for this exist. The observability platform must simply (haha) implement the pattern detectors and use them for sampling decisions.

anygivnthursday 9 hours ago|||
I am not sure if this is what they mean, but e.g. with Micrometer in Java you can instrument your code once with observations that produces observation events, then you can register handlers that can turn them into metrics, or logs, or traces without having to instrument your code three times.

https://docs.micrometer.io/micrometer/reference/observation....

Flamkuchlo 9 hours ago||
The problem is not the instrumentation but the way everyone of them work.

A metric is a point in time. A metric is very small but you have a lot of them.

A log is when something is happening but you need to log it out. A logline is heavy and has a lot of context. User id, message, etc.

A trace needs to start at the request level and tracing until the response. This is the slowest and heaviest operation.

How do you decide when to suddenly do the trace and send it? IF you always do the trace, you have to pay for the overhead of that tracing constantly.

twic 5 hours ago|||
Logs and metrics are both derived from events. A log takes the whole event and records it somewhere. A metric takes some numeric value from the event, aggregates it over time, and records it periodically. You can reconstruct a metric from logs for the underlying events.

A trace is a period of execution between two events. You could record a trace as a pair of log entries, or one log entry at the end. You can then reconstruct a trace from those log entries. If you want to associate multiple spans, and separate log entries, within a trace, you use a shared ID, which is just the same as a context entry for logging.

All three of these pillars are just ways of looking at events. They are not fundamentally different at all. This is a mistaken idea in "Observability 1.0" whose correction is the basis of "Observability 2.0".

The pillars still have their uses, but the choice between them is really a non-functional one - storing a log entry for every event might be too expensive, so just store metrics instead, and index every log entry so it can be correlated with nearby ones might be too expensive, so just store specific traces instead.

jandrewrogers 1 hour ago|||
This is the literally the "everything is a graph" argument from database architecture. The conceptual abstraction fails badly because it has to be implemented on real silicon that imposes constraints not considered in the abstraction.

Logs, metrics, and traces are all derived from raw events but none of them are intrinsically discrete events in a systems engineering sense. They are all different data models with different patterns of traversal over raw events. As data model, you need to build secondary indexes over the raw metrics to reflect the orthogonal data access patterns depending on if you are evaluating them as logs, metrics, or traces. This famously has poor scalability and performance.

In analytical processing we largely manage the inherent performance and scalability issues using denormalization, which allows processing pipelines with very different requirements to be optimized independently. Or in this context, treating logs, metrics, and traces as unrelated things with independent infrastructure.

"Observability 2.0" deeply embeds an architectural assumption that all systems are small. It is not a tractable architecture in high-scale or high-performance systems.

Real silicon has a long history of destroying beautiful conceptual abstractions in software engineering.

skrtskrt 56 minutes ago||
You are conflating the challenges of ingesting and querying at large scale with the what the original comment is about, which is emitting them more easily.
Flamkuchlo 3 hours ago||||
A metric is not event based.

You don't have a metric 'person logged in' because you would need to scrape the metric at the moment a person logged in.

You have a metric called 'overall people have logged in so far' and you do math on it.

The 'person logged in' is an event you log out.

PunchyHamster 1 hour ago|||
> Logs and metrics are both derived from events. A log takes the whole event and records it somewhere. A metric takes some numeric value from the event, aggregates it over time, and records it periodically. You can reconstruct a metric from logs for the underlying events.

No, metric is just value. Some are derived from events (like histogram/rate of given event duration) but others are wholly independent (like returning app's CPU/memory usage)

spockz 7 hours ago||||
Technically, you can use the same places in the code where you stop/start/fork traces to also be the places where you increment the counters/gauges, etc. Which I think the GP was alluding to when describing the micrometer solution. Similarly, you can derive metrics for log lines without having to emit the actual log lines.

Then separately you can have log levels or verbosity levels that control to which level you actually emit traces/logs and/or roll up metrics.

jaen 4 hours ago||||
What? All of this has been solved for a long time. How do you think hyperscalers do this?

Search keyword: "Adaptive sampling"

Flamkuchlo 3 hours ago||
Adaptive sampling is not tracing, its sampling.

Tracing traces a particular event.

I'm quite aware of the difference between sampling, tracing and profiling.

TylerE 7 hours ago|||
At that point you almost might as well just log everything. The decision logic is likely about as complex as just doing it. Then I suppose you have a watchdog task that fires off every, say, 15 minutes or an hour or something, looks at the collected data, and either decides to keep it or trash it while recording a tiny "nothing interesting" datapoint.
Flamkuchlo 3 hours ago||
Loghandling is quite resource intensive.

All the log ingestion systems i have seen were bigger elastic search clusters.

sweetgiorni 9 hours ago|||
> How would you represent metrics as traces?

Just instrument your meter implementation so each observation produces a span. Boom, free metric-derived traces.

jandrewrogers 1 hour ago|||
"free". The observability system would greatly exceed the workload being observed in many cases.
fallingbananna 7 hours ago|||
Yup. Not a difficult problem to solve.

In the code define everything as a span with a name, scope (start-end), description and tags... and then you can easily dynamically produce traces, spans, logs or metrics based on what you need.

TylerE 7 hours ago||
At some point your monitoring is burning 10x as much CPU as the actual task...
hobofan 7 hours ago|||
I don't think OTEL is necessarily "at fault" here. It's a split that's carried all throughout the observability ecosystem. e.g. in the Grafana suite of solutions you have Loki (logs), Tempo (tracing) and Mimir (metrics) to cover storage & querying for all three axis, as all of them have very distinct processing & performance characteristics.

While it may intuitively may look like there is a large overlap in the three areas there is suprisingly little, and for the few parts there are (e.g. trace <-> log correlation), OTEL does offer a standard.

MathMonkeyMan 10 hours ago|||
Tracing is the most general of them, and the most expensive unless you're careful with the implementation.

Trace spans are time-delimited units of "stuff that happened", with a tree relationship among the spans, and each span can have arbitrary tags (key/value pairs) and events (time/value).

From that, if you chose, you could derive metrics and logs. The trick is to start with tracing and to actually put it in your program, rather than trying to mostly-automatically tack it on later.

spockz 7 hours ago|||
I think it is almost a inevitability where otel came as a standardised aggregate of OpenTracing (which was the same but only for tracing over multiple tracing implementations), logging, and metrics into a single observability standard without alienating all the individual supporting vendors.

Historically, logging and metrics have been different problem domains with different implementations for ages.

Now to your point: Note that tracing does get the most of love, and that it does include constructs to add logging and metrics into these traces (spans actually). So you could argue that they are trying to develop a single interface.

> “The next time something like this occurs again, please save me a trace.”

Well, if you want this you either need to propagate this predicate to all points that might be involved, or always emit all traces and have the predicate included in the filter. And then you need to be able to dynamically propagate this predicate from the system/ui where you click to where you filter.

This is one of the reasons why we always propagate and emit traces and just post filter it in processing before it lands in the persistence layer.

veqq 11 hours ago|||
You can do that in Lisp, since you can arbitrarily redefine the wrapper to have such or other logic etc.
thorian1828i03 14 hours ago||
One strategy do to do that is to trace everything by default and select what to sample later, e.g. https://grafana.com/docs/grafana-cloud/observe-and-act/adapt...
EdSchouten 14 hours ago|||
If I understand that correctly, it means your app always creates traces, and Grafana Cloud is responsible for sampling/aggregating. That may be prohibitively expensive in terms of CPU/network load.

What I’m suggesting is that your apps by default only send metrics to your monitoring system, but that the monitoring system can specifically ask to “upgrade” metrics to traces. Or to log entries.

The same thing with metric cardinality: by default, only report metrics in a fully aggregated manner. But do tell the monitoring system how they can potentially be broken up if needed (i.e., which labels to add).

ffsm8 12 hours ago|||
You're pitching a solution that's incredible brittle and unnecessarily complicated if you think about it in technical terms.

For your feature to work you need bi-directional communication between the otel receiver and your application - that's still doable in general, but now you want a synchronous "upgrade" to traces.

Now we're talking about a massive performance impact - and you need to somehow cache all otel data locally so they're available for the upgrade and only then submit then.

It is a architecture that's not very smart, honestly. And precisely the reason why you'd simply submit everything and let the receiver figure out which samples it wants to keep - as thorian pointed out earlier.

thorian1828i03 14 hours ago||||
> The same thing with metric cardinality: by default, only report metrics in a fully aggregated manner. But do tell the monitoring system how they can potentially be broken up if needed (i.e., which labels to add).

How does the monitoring system have any of the context to add labels? That would only exist in application memory.

Grafana went the other way - your app exports all labels, and then you selectively aggregate on ingest: https://grafana.com/docs/grafana-cloud/observe-and-act/adapt...

> That may be prohibitively expensive in terms of CPU/network load.

In practice I've not experienced this even on quite high request rates. While it isn't free, exporting everything has been cheap enough that the real cost in dollars spent is basically marginal (it's _storing_ the data that's expensive)

EdSchouten 13 hours ago||
> How does the monitoring system have any of the context to add labels? That would only exist in application memory.

Indeed. If you have a protocol that doesn’t allow exposing that kind of information, then that only lives in application memory. But my suggestion is that it’s exposed.

ragall 11 hours ago|||
> If I understand that correctly, it means your app always creates traces

Yes, because otherwise what you propose requires modifying the binary in-place and that's too big of a security hole for lots of (production) environments. Some variants of that could work with an out-of-process method like Dtrace or eBPF, but that means mutating the kernel, even more of a no-no.

PunchyHamster 1 hour ago|||
It is very easy way to have your tracing infrastructure cost more than actual infrastructure.
Havoc 4 hours ago||
I find the entire observability space to quite a poor experience, at least in the self-hosted space. Tried both grafana route and signoz and neither seems particularly pleasant
nunez 49 minutes ago||
What about the experience did you find lacking?
N_Lens 4 hours ago||
Try datalust/seq
brikym 20 hours ago||
I've never found instrumentation to be a huge issue. Sure it takes more effort but you get a lot more value once you understand _business_ events.
rcleveng 12 hours ago||
Sounds a lot like K8s. It's not a framework you use, it's a framework to build a framework on top of.

I wish the observability vendors would move to using it under the covers so it's easier to mix and match.

I wish the otel support wasn't super buggy in most of the frameworks and backends.

Kinrany 1 hour ago||
It feels like OTel tried standardizing before the correct design was anywhere close to being settled. It's only time to standardize once there's consensus on all the important points, and what's left is minor details that don't matter for anything other than compatibility.
ninkendo 13 minutes ago|
Speaking only from my experience using their rust crates, they have undergone more “code feng shui” than any of our other dependencies. They’re still 0.x and every point release seems to re-imagine things enough to break everything and require substantial rewriting. They don’t even bother describing the motivation for changes, just, you can’t use this type any more, it’s private now. You can’t configure metadata here any more, you have to do it there now. It’s been the most painful dependency of ours by far.
bilalq 15 hours ago||
OTel is so frustrating. If it wasn't shaping to be the clear winner in the space, I wouldn't complain about it as much. But today:

1. Every major vendor is still in some weird alpha/beta support for OTel even after all this time.

2. The performance hit is substantial and makes you question what the point of performance instrumentation is if you need twice as much compute/RAM to run the same workload now.

3. Serverless runtimes pay a heavy penalty for cold starts with OTel.

4. You're basically forced to run both gateway collectors and edge collectors for any realistic usage.

5. You still need to configure destination exporters in unique ways. This leaves you questioning what the value of OTel was.

6. Vendors that go beyond the scope of what OTel covers still need their own bespoke instrumentation. What was the point of any of this then?

cyberax 13 hours ago||
> 4. You're basically forced to run both gateway collectors and edge collectors for any realistic usage.

You most certainly don't. You can run your app (especially if it's "serverless") without the collector agent.

App-to-agent and agent-to-sink use the same protocol, so all you need to do is set up the tracing/logging/metrics exporters to directly speak with the sink. These days, it typically means specifying the URL and the DSN header.

bilalq 11 hours ago||
Perhaps there's a gap in my understanding. Can you clarify on this a bit more? I run a mix of serverless and non-serverless workloads.

Gateway collectors are unavoidable because various SaaS platforms require you to be running publicly reachable endpoints to send telemetry to.

In a runtime like Lambda, how would you avoid the need to run an edge collector? The only thing that comes to mind is to write to logs and then have a log stream processor that then writes to your gateway collector. Other than that, it seems unavoidable, no? Sure, in something like Fargate you could go app to sink. But even that has its own tradeoffs.

clintonb 9 hours ago|||
(I’m not the person you replied to, but have experience here.)

I follow the [gateway deployment pattern](https://opentelemetry.io/docs/collector/deploy/gateway/). Everything sends telemetry to our gateway, which exports to ClickHouse (formerly Datadog).

We use Node.js, so all we need to do is run a script initializing Otel before running the app. We set this up following the docs a few years ago, and haven’t had to change it much since then.

cyberax 8 hours ago|||
A typical setup is to run a separate OpenTelemetry collector process on the same host as the app. The app connects to it via localhost on a standard port (although you can override it using env vars).

The collector process then sends the metrics/traces/logs to the observability sink. But there's nothing at all preventing you from sending telemetry directly to the observability sink.

It's just outbound HTTP or GRPC, and it doesn't have to go over public Internet.

> In a runtime like Lambda, how would you avoid the need to run an edge collector?

Here's my setup (in Go, very simplified):

> // Instantiate a new slog logger > logger := otelslog.NewLogger("root", otelslog.WithLoggerProvider(otelLogger)) > // Use the logger as needed

My code uses proper Go loggers exclusively. I also redirected the stdout and stderr to a goroutine (via the usual close(2)+open() trick) to serve as a catch-all sink for anything that slips the net.

bilalq 8 hours ago||
In a lambda runtime, are you blocking client responses until logs/traces/metrics flush?
ojkelly 5 hours ago|||
Use the lambda layer [0] it sends the telemetry after the response is sent, so it doesn’t block.

[0] https://github.com/open-telemetry/opentelemetry-lambda

bilalq 42 minutes ago||
That lambda layer comes with an incredibly heavy performance penalty.

It doesn't block, but it does consume compute/memory resources and takes forever to startup[0][1]. To be fair, Rotel is promising in this regard[2].

[0]: https://github.com/open-telemetry/opentelemetry-lambda/issue...

[1]: https://github.com/aws-observability/aws-otel-lambda/issues/...

[2]: https://github.com/rotel-dev/rotel

cyberax 46 minutes ago||||
I don't use Lambda anymore, but yes. I submitted traces to AWS XRay in a background goroutine with a small timeout.
bilalq 9 minutes ago||
If you're sending data purely to X-Ray, there's already a daemon running on lambda that you can forward to with low overhead if you don't use OTel. You also get near zero-cost logging and metric to Cloudwatch and EMF. But if you want bring destinations in the mix or do anything other than Cloudwatch , you have to pay the OTel tax. And even if you were content with a pure AWS setup, OTel is still being pushed on you now.

The X-Ray daemon and SDKs are all deprecated now in favor of OTel. Things like enchrichment of resource level traces for things like the DynamoDB client in v3 of the AWS JS SDK don't work with the X-Ray SDK. And they never will now. You're now recommended to use the AWS Distro for OpenTelemetry setup and OTel SDKs. The performance overhead of this is heavy, with big cold-start penalties.

Compare this with how the Datadog layer does adaptive flushing and performs relatively much better. Rotel is also promising in this space. But right now, OTel feels immature and things are being deprecated without the replacement being fully baked.

Game_Ender 6 hours ago|||
This is what I have done with CLI apps the directly send to the OTEL vendor. It works great.
arcanemachiner 12 hours ago||
So what's the alternative then? (Genuine question, not hypothetical snark.)
nunez 38 minutes ago|||
- Paying Datadog $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, or

- Using and configuring a suite of tools (Jaeger for tracing, Vector or Fluentd for logs, Prometeheus for metrics)

bilalq 11 hours ago|||
There isn't really a great alternative without vendor lock-in. If you go all-in on AWS Cloudwatch/X-Ray, it's a really easy setup with low effort. If you go all-in on Datadog, it's pretty easy. But if you want to mix Sentry, Langfuse, Datadog, etc, OTel is still probably the best option. It's just a letdown that this is the best there is.

I don't mean to disparage anyone working on OTel. I can appreciate that it has ambitious goals and it's not an easy problem to get alignment and interop here. Especially with all the stakeholders involved. But as a user, it feels simultaeneously over-engineered and under-engineered.

huksley 2 hours ago|
OTel is very complicated while yeah for example datadog is just dropin. And Graylog support for OTel makes it a second class citizen in the logs (all attributes are prepended with otel_attributes_ which makes searching difficult).

Using is hard, vendors are hostile, it seems like no-one want it to be a first class citizen...

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