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Posted by l-one-lone 17 hours ago

How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs(lectronz.com)
1169 points | 690 commentspage 10
p0w3n3d 16 hours ago|
As usual, throwing babies out with the bath water
oblio 16 hours ago||
This is a direct result of national politics.

EU member states want all the benefits of integration without giving anything up, especially things that they consider aspects of national sovereignty.

* * *

I'll give you an example.

I'm from Romania. In Romania in 1990 there were no private enterprises, so everything was state owned. There was a HUGE demand for commerce/retail, so small local businesses popped up. They were very basic because everything was brand new and expertise was extremely scarce. No one knew anything about modern supermarkets, supermarket chains, banks, loans, credit lines, basically everything related to modern market economies.

As Romanian headed for EU integration, foreign invested started... investing. In retail that meant that because Romania is fairly populous by EU standards, everyone was tempted by a potentially big and growing pie that was almost void of serious competition.

So we ended up with Lidl (German), Kaufland (German), Metro (German), Carrefour (French), Mega Image (Romanian, bought by Delhaize: Belgian), DM (German), Cora (French), Auchan (French), Profi (Romanian, bought by Delhaize: Belgian), Selgros (Swiss), Penny (bought by REWE: German), etc.

I moved abroad somewhere close to both France and Germany. At a company I worked for, I had both French and German coworkers.

At some point the Germans were talking about Kaufland and I started chatting with them about it. Some French people mentioned Auchan and I replied to that too. After a few more replies about German and French supermarket chains, one of them said: how do you know so much about both French and German supermarket chains?

And I told them:

We're right next to Germany and German supermarkets stop at the border. There is no Aldi in France. Most French people in the neighboring French towns haven't even been in an Aldi.

We're also next to France and French supermarkets stop at the border. There is no Carrefour in Germany. Most German people in the neighboring German towns haven't even been in a Carrefour.

In Romania your big companies bought everything local (or displaced it), there are hardly any locally owned stores so I guess the upside is that I know all your supermarket chains.

* * *

Repeat this for banking, IT, whatever. Europe is super economically segregated even with the EU operating. Each country has all sort of hidden protections for its local businesses. I can't really tell you what they are exactly, but in practice you can feel them. Each country has its own version of X, Y, Z businesses. Small versions of everything, instead of few really big and competitive businesses at a global level.

This even impacts US companies. You can't get a European Netflix subscription. You fly from Romania to France and when you land and connect your tablet to the internet, your Romanian Netflix account switches over to France and they delete Mad Men from your downloaded episodes because Netflix France hasn't licensed Mad Men (old example).

DanielHB 16 hours ago||
Language, payroll-rules and tax-rules alone can be enough to prevent a business from expanding into a market. Even when there is no foul intent, just different set of rules.

I am from Brazil and it is not unusual for companies to operate only within certain states because of this. Even though Brazil is a single country with a single language and mostly federal rules about things, there is still enough variance of laws from one state to another to cause problems.

Then you hear about Canada which has tariffs between its own provinces, but not to the US. Meaning some products are cheaper across the US border than across a province border. Figuring out how much to pay in taxes alone can be a blocker...

This is not an EU-only problem, any large single market will have friction in its internal divisions. It tends to be worse in the EU because the countries have a lot more sovereignty though (enforcement agencies tend to be local, not federal for example).

soco 15 hours ago|||
EU is for all practical means not a single market, it's a hodge-podge of rules much more integrated in theory than in practice. Which is exactly the thing causing problems here, and ironically this is exactly what the anti-EU folks complain about. Think about this disconnect: complaining about friction and requesting less integration.
oblio 16 hours ago|||
> Then you hear about Canada which has tariffs between its own provinces, but not to the US.

Canada doesn't have, and should not have, the level of ambitions the EU should have. We're talking about EU 450 million people (500+ million if the UK rejoins at some point) vs Canada 35 million.

The EU should go toe to toe with the US and China. The EU is utterly dominated by US software companies and by Chinese green tech companies (batteries, solar panels, EVs).

throw-the-towel 16 hours ago|||
I feel for you, but the points you're making seem to be contradictory. You don't like that European companies bought out Romanian ones, yet at the same time you don't like that Europe has small versions of everything for each country instead of big mega-corps like Carrefour and Aldi? Or perhaps you're OK with mega-corps, and just want some of them to be Romanian?
oblio 16 hours ago||
> I feel for you, but the points you're making seem to be contradictory.

No, that is actually one of the points, I'm glad someone noticed it.

I, too, want to have my cake and eat it, too. This is a contradiction that can't easily be resolved.

I'd want Romanian sovereignty AND the convenience of big companies with lots of economic power. I guess, to your direct comment, yeah, I'd be happy enough with a few European "champions" out of hundreds being Romanian.

Personally, I lean more towards EU federalism so this cognitive dissonance is probably 30-70 towards big companies, because I think otherwise the EU will be crushed by outsiders.

sajithdilshan 16 hours ago|||
I think this is true for a lot of Balkan countries that joined EU. I was in Croatia recently and was super surprised to see Lidl and DM stores there. Even more surprised to see the prices of items in those stores were almost same as in Berlin
tietjens 16 hours ago|||
Very interesting! Also, I would trade Aldi for Carrefour in less than a second.
ahartmetz 15 hours ago||
They aren't in the same category of supermarket though.

Anyway, your name sounds Dutch. Please bring Albert Heijn to Germany. I'm not even sure why, but it's my favorite supermarket I've been to so far.

tietjens 15 hours ago||
That's true. I'd trade Lidl for Carrefour then. I like Albert Heijn too. It's like a successful mix of the grocery store tiers.
vladvasiliu 16 hours ago|||
Don't know about Carrefour and Auchan in Germany, but there are plenty of Aldis and Lidls in France, at least in the Paris region.
oblio 8 hours ago||
I checked some quick numbers and Lidl is around 10% in the French market, while Aldi is around 4%. They've both surged since Covid. In 2010 together they held about 3% of the French market.

So yes, there are more recent developments for supermarkets, but repeat the exercise for banks or other fields. How often do French people get services from German companies, for example online retail? Do they go to otto.fr, kaufland.fr, etc?

rjsw 16 hours ago|||
There are ALDI stores in France, I don't know which ALDI without looking it up. Carrefour has stores in Italy and Spain.
oblio 16 hours ago||
> Carrefour has stores in Italy and Spain.

And Auchan has stores in Spain (Alcampo).

I'm not saying that the boundary is a 20km high wall of fire nothing can go through.

I'm saying that:

1. the direction is mostly big countries -> smaller countries, and very rarely big countries -> other big countries or even rarer, smaller countries -> big countries.

2. 20+ years after the EU has started, the level of high level integration is still pitiful.

rjsw 15 hours ago||
People don't want complete integration.

If I go into the Carrefour in Sallanches (FR) then I will buy a completely different set of products to those that I would buy in the Carrefour in Aosta (IT), the two are 80km apart, I have shopped in both multiple times.

I don't think the supermarket example really maps across to the subject of the linked article.

maattdd 16 hours ago|||
There are a lot of Aldi in France (also Lidl, also Action (Netherlands)...) Not sure of your point.
dragochat 15 hours ago||
TL;DR in EU, "strong" countries protected their national companies; weaker or smaller ones didn't

=> short term gain, free profits for eg FR or DE companies being allowed to devour other smaller countrie's markets

=> big country corpos get used to "almost free lunch"

=> big EU corpos fail to innovated and become uncompetitive globally

=> US ans CN corpos try instead to come with their increased efficiency and innovation at the EU market

=> EU freaks out and throws random restrictions and fines and regulations

=> only the most aggressive and ruthless CN (Temu etc) and US companies get through

=> they mostly rape the s out of EU markets

=> EU tries to protect its markets but its institutions have been regulatorly captured

=> [dark spiral goes on and on...]

aristofun 15 hours ago||
Europe has been steadily eradicating freedom and entrepreneurial spirit for the past 50 years. They will suffer badly many years later. They are slowly walking to disaster, but nobody cares. Go on, downvote me for telling the obvious truth :)
Ylpertnodi 15 hours ago|
After so long living in each EU country, your 'obvious truth' is neither obvious or truthful..
aristofun 13 hours ago||
That is exactly why. You are blind to your own problems :)
Scharkenberg 13 hours ago||
This is very condescending.
aristofun 12 hours ago||
Sometimes truth is not sweet, sorry. And there is no point in sugarcoating even if I'm mistaken, we are all grown ups here.

If european innovative companies and small businesses flourish in 10 years - I'll be the first to apologize and admit the mistake.

But there are just no signs of it today. While plenty of signs and data supporting my point.

phazerfamza 14 hours ago||
as a european, the biggest problem with the EU is the actual EU, the core idea is good, but they have massive over reach and way to much power, they are supposed to be there for european countries, instead it's the other way around.
forinti 16 hours ago||
These things are going to be sent by mail. You could just have the postal service charge a few extra cents.
jwildeboer 16 hours ago||
FTR. The whole PPWR process started back in 2015, there was a public consultation period in 2020-21, the new rules were entered into force in February 2025 and now the general application happened. So there was plenty of time to prepare, as far as I can see. People that run a business in the EU and now claim to be surprised, they, well, surprise me.
dankben 16 hours ago||
You must be a fellow German. No where else in the world does the objection that bad legislation has been discussed (very negatively I might add, look up the results from consultation period you quoted) for 10 years have any merit on discussion whether that legislation fulfills its purpose.

So what if businesses "had time to prepare"? Its not the governments / especially the EUs job to waste the time of small businesses.

thunspa 16 hours ago|||
Do you assume regular people spend time on EU portals reading legislation proposals?
throw-the-towel 15 hours ago|||
MISTER PROSSER: But Mister Dent the plans have been available in the planning office for the last nine months!

ARTHUR DENT: Yes! I went round to find them yesterday afternoon. You’d hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to pull much attention to them have you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.

MISTER PROSSER: The plans were on display.

ARTHUR DENT: Ah! And how many members of the public are in the habit of casually dropping around the local planning office of an evening?

MISTER PROSSER: Er – ah!

ARTHUR DENT: It’s not exactly a noted social venue is it? And even if you had popped in on the off chance that some raving bureaucrat wanted to knock your house down, the plans weren’t immediately obvious to the eye were they?

MISTER PROSSER: That depends where you were looking.

ARTHUR DENT: I eventually had to go down to the cellar!

MISTER PROSSER: That’s the display department.

ARTHUR DENT: With a torch!

MISTER PROSSER: The lights, had… probably gone.

ARTHUR DENT: So had the stairs!

MISTER PROSSER: Well you found the notice didn’t you?

ARTHUR DENT: Yes. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard”.

baggy_trough 16 hours ago|||
Yes, we are surprised to find out how foolish and counterproductive some legislation can be.
ToucanLoucan 16 hours ago||
It also surprises and bewilders me that businesses (usually tech or tech adjacent) apparently expect and have for some time expected the ability to do business internationally completely without friction. Which is less something I think is a good or bad idea, and far more just simply an unrealistic one. If you want to sell in a given set of countries, I would think it a given that you would have to deal with the regulations and business laws in each of those given countries. The fact that you want to sell hacker/DIY products to people in less developed markets is admirable, certainly, but it doesn't change that. It's an unsolved problem precisely because it's kind of a pain in the ass to do compliance work across a large number of them. It's why large companies have entire departments devoted to regulatory compliance.

As far as I'm concerned the only way you could say this is "killing" any business is if the business in question has, as you said, spent the last decade just assuming they could sell things wherever with no oversight.

dankben 16 hours ago|||
What an interesting point of view considering the discussed post. One of the main pillars of the EU its is single-market policy, you would very well expect businesses to be built on the premise of frictionless trade within these borders. And im not sure which market exactly you're calling "less developed"?
dgellow 16 hours ago|||
The whole point of the EU single market is to remove that friction
deno 15 hours ago||
If you actually sell electronics you also need to register for electronic recycling (WEEE or equivalent) in each member state you sell to and the costs are even greater than PPWR costs alone. Probably 5x more at least.
uehdheb 11 hours ago|
Yea. My guess is that the people complaining now are not in compliance with current regulations as well
andix 3 hours ago||
This regulation is utterly broken. The only way for a small business is to ignore it completely and hope for the best.
bluegatty 16 hours ago||
Regulatory capture in this case.

They need proportionality and size/qty exemptions

philipallstar 16 hours ago|
Regulatory capture doesn't exist. Only corrupt and/or incompetent regulators.
dragochat 16 hours ago||
all people are somewhat corrupt or incompentent.

that's why it only makes sense so think in broader terms, and a broader level regulatory capture absolutely exists.

the problem is that to solve regulatory capture in the EU parts of governments would have so go to war against corporations on the part of SMBs. but... governments in Europe de facto don't even recognize the right to exist of SMBs, basically _nothin_ of the large swath of government contracts fall to misc small businesses that would be perfectly capable to deliver on them at even 4x the quality standard corrupto-corpos do... probably there's some positive counteexamples in the weapons industry recently since we've realized we really do need quality weaponry at great value "by yesterday morning", but besides that... govs _HATE_ both SMBs and startups-from-unkowns (god forbit bootstrapped...).

philipallstar 15 hours ago||
It seems odd to blame lobbying (which you could also "rule of the universe" out of existence by saying everyone lobbies to some extent) when you seem to actually be blaming EU governments for being so hostile to SMBs.
bluegatty 1 hour ago||
All regulations favour some groups more than others.

Exempting small business could easily be viewed as hostile / corrupt regulation disfavouring large entities.

These kinds of regulations are usually not even welcome by larger companies, but there is less pushback.

'packaging' isn't the place to use the c-word.

kodoman 15 hours ago|
For any one interested in how deep these sort regulatory capture laws go in the EU, they can look at the deforestation laws on Agri. Pointlessly difficult for small farmers and medium and commodity traders to cooperate with demanding highly accurate coordinates for plots of land using specialized GPS devices and companies to plot the perimeter of the farm being very difficult to comply with getting the devices in place and plotting none of this actually stopping bad actors who simply lie about the origin of the commodities. I am some one who thinks environmental protection is important but these laws pretend to solve the issue while do very little and just add all these pointless tasks that become easy once you own lots of farm land like say nestle (though they pretend that it's the big players who are going to have a hard time). I deeply hate the EU but love Europe as a European, I hope Europe breaks from the chains of this pointless post war project.
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