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Posted by l-one-lone 11 hours ago

How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs(lectronz.com)
997 points | 626 commentspage 3
ionwake 10 hours ago|
as the whole world crushes small entities one has to wonder whether the EU would be the saviour or not. Apparently not. With its rules, they merely help crush small business as per usual.

I heard in the 50s an american could just startup a business installing septic tanks. But now the same person would need a myriad of regulations to be met, heavy equipment use mandated, all of which raise overhead to a level where its impossible to get off the ground.

I always felt the EU were the "good guys", IE not allowing corps to steam roll everyone, what with their rules fining poor behvaiour such as privacy violations, chargers being non standard etc.

However the same problem exists in weird ways you wouldnt even imagine.

For example if someone walks into a small "mom and pops" coffee shop and accuse the owner of "ejecting them due to harrasment reasons", that results in a court case, which can bankrupt the whole margin thin enterprise.

You might say, wait how on earth would a random troublemaker get funding to take a cafe to court, and for what benefit? For one its easier for a settlement to be reached regardless of fault that benefits the claimant than a long court process.

Now how could claimants have the resources? Unbelievably it turns out there are free national non profit corporations that will take any claim for free to court for situation mentioned above.

So what happens in the end? The small coffee shops cant survive but the larger corps who can afford the random payouts are fine, the competition seems to go away on its own and the claimants are happy with what amounts to random payouts for little work.

Please look it up it, and correct me if im wrong, I only know this from some little research into the forays of why small coffee shops find it hard to survive in western landscapes and risks, as I wanted to open my own coffee shop!

In summary, as always the road to ruin is paved with good intentions. So the EU trying to help a little guy in a specific context, ends up creating a situation that makes all small coffee shops non profitable.

I have no solutions.

ilamont 9 hours ago||
> I heard in the 50s an american could just startup a business installing septic tanks. But now the same person would need a myriad of regulations to be met, heavy equipment use mandated, all of which raise overhead to a level where its impossible to get off the ground.

You can still do such businesses, but the red tape and other requirements are enourmous: health department and construction applications, soil tests, inspections, manufacturing requirements, and so on. The additional costs and delays are passed on to customers.

It's not just septic tanks, it's all areas of construction and one of the reasons why in many states (like New York and California) it's impossible to make low-cost housing anymore, or (like in Florida) new regulations governing old construction are leading to sky-high reserve requirements and condo fees.

There's also the phenomenon of people just ignoring the laws or bypassing them. For your septic tank example, in Alabama out in the countryside people with low cost prefab houses ("double wides") don't want to pay $10,000 to dig a trench for a septic tank, so they just run sewer hoses deep into the woods or ditches. https://www.epa.gov/septic/surface-discharge-raw-wastewater-...

nonethewiser 7 hours ago|||
>as the whole world crushes small entities one has to wonder whether the EU would be the saviour or not.

Who was wondering this? The EU has been hostile to small businesses and entrepreneurs from the beginning.

latexr 9 hours ago|||
> Please look it up

You’re the one making the claim, so please provide sources for your fantastical scenario. By your logic there should be no small coffee shops across the EU, yet this is verifiably and patently untrue.

nonethewiser 6 hours ago|||
Small coffee shops prove the point. It's not worth it to invest for growth.
latexr 6 hours ago||
There is a big difference between being unable to grow and being uninterested in it. I sincerely doubt most people open a small coffee shop dreaming of expansion. Small coffee shop owners don’t want to be Starbucks. Being small and wanting to stay small is not a failure.
nonethewiser 6 hours ago||
Desire is irrelevant. Small European coffee shops can’t become starbucks.
ionwake 9 hours ago|||
You should do your own research and I don’t want to take up space on HN but I’m happy to take a look can you name what exactly you found hard to believe? It’s been known for decades small business can’t survive legal landscape as easily as large corps.

If you are confused by the statement there are no small coffee shops - are you living in Europe? From first hand experience coffee shops survive less than a couple years on any high street , yet there is a Starbucks on every street corner and it’s a well known fact small coffee shops operate on almost non existent margins.

latexr 9 hours ago|||
> You should do your own research

Sure, but you should also understand that “look it up” is the escape words of every inane claim. “The Earth is flat, look it up”; “Reptilians are controlling the world, do your own research”; “Bill Gates is injecting you with mind-control chips, google it”.

You can “do your own research” and “confirm” anything. Which is why the person making the original claim should provide sources, so we can all discuss the same thing and not talk past each other. If your sources are flawed, it’s much easier to reach that conclusion if we’re all looking at the same thing.

> I don’t want to take up space on HN

Don’t worry, a few characters won’t make a difference.

> I’m happy to take a look

Thank you.

> can you name what exactly you found hard to believe?

Certainly. It’s paragraphs 5–8 in your original post. The claim that there are random troublemakers regularly employing free national non-profit corporations in the EU to extort and bankrupt local coffee shops by lying about having been ejected for racial reasons.

ionwake 4 hours ago||
Thanks for your reply, you are right, its always helpful to have sources but you cant expect everyone to constantly source their statements, especially when they can just be googled.

Personally, and this could just be me, I think if I read something of interest I always do my own research, as I dont believe most of what I read, so I expect others to do the same.

I also think its rude to write alot of text instead of a concise expression of an idea.

Bro 5-8 paragraphs is like saying, prove every single point in half of what you wrote.

First of all I didnt "Make a claim" I said "For example". Bear in mind everyone infers differently. My point was there are setups that allow claimants to take small entities to court, without them having to foot the bill.

Law Centres Network: ~120,000 citizens/year (free solicitor casework & representation) LawWorks: ~70,000 citizens/year (free pro bono legal advice & casework)

shimman 9 hours ago|||
uhh no, if you're the one making an argument the burden is on you to provide actual sources and not say "trust me bro, look it up."

You're trying to argue how school children argue, aim a little higher if you want to convince people that know how to read.

ionwake 4 hours ago||
You are insulting me which is an odd way to have a discussion on this forum, and no I disagree with you. Stop being lazy and do your own research. To help you along I gave some more info above. Thanks for the bump.
shimman 2 hours ago||
Imagine thinking asking someone for sources as "insulting."
ionwake 1 hour ago||
No this comment is insulting as its calling me a child "You're trying to argue how school children argue, aim a little higher if you want to convince people that know how to read."

imagine if you will.... the trolling you are serving

Kenji 9 hours ago||
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mkl95 6 hours ago||
EU states do an excellent job at tolerating each other, with the odd hiccup. They are also gerontocracies fronted by middle aged leaders focused on pleasing older wealthy people, who last cared about entrepreneurship in the 70s. When you combine it with extremely low birth rates, you get a rotting economy.
martin_a 4 hours ago||
Newly established laws are always like a pendulum.

It swings to one side, overreaching and overcomplicating things, and then back to the other side where restrictions are loosened or removed.

Anybody remembers the EU platform for dispute resolution? It's gone after 10 years because nobody used it.

PPWR in 10 years will probably be something like: Sign up for a recycling system in your country and pay for the packaging you've brought into the market. Also have icons on the packaging so people know how to recycle them. (Except in France, they'll surely require some crazy stuff as always.)

srg0 9 hours ago||
It appears there is space for "packaging and distribution in EU as a service" business model.

Creators, producers and manufacturers in many fields do not distribute or sell directly to consumers (musicians can't directly upload to Spotify and Apple Music; film producers don't upload to Netflix, writers don't print their books).

A small-time maker may pay a fee to the established distributor of the physical products, who takes care of compliance, and uses their packaging and distribution channels.

gmueckl 9 hours ago||
Good idea, except that the regulation (as I understand it) prevents this. The company sending out the packaging to the customer is the one who has to register. It's possible to hire consulting to set this up, but the fees don't go a way or get distributed over a broader set of shoulders.
nonethewiser 7 hours ago||
>It appears there is space for "packaging and distribution in EU as a service" business model.

What a fucking nightmare

kakoni 10 hours ago||
And then there is Temu (as a platform). They've done all the necessary EPR/PPWR agreements with various European countries/vendors. It handles all the fees and reporting for Chinese sellers.
Urahandystar 9 hours ago|
Yup, soon they will offer to handle the compliance for EU sellers for no risk and low and behold the idiots have given away a tax on selling in the single market to another country before they know it.
bitlad 9 hours ago||
I can attest to this. People say the Netherlands is among the best countries to be an entrepreneur. The visa policies for starting a business are good. But man, the whole tax system, shares, and holding management—belasting breathing up your neck—is horrible when I am trying to do firefighting. You never know when you might get hit by a tax bill. The tax system is built towards benefitting large organizations, and they can afford expensive tax consultants who can help them dodge it. The VC ecosystem is limited and not risk averse.

Having operated in multiple geographies, US is really business friendly.

tdeck 10 hours ago||
I imagine what will happen in practice is that the makers will simply ignore the law and hope not to get prosecuted or audited?
IsTom 9 hours ago||
I've seen some conflicting claims on this law and to me it sounded like it affects mostly producers of packaging, but everyone else seems to be complaining about it too. Did everyone actually read the law or is this a game of telephone?
alephnerd 9 hours ago||
> Did everyone actually read the law or is this a game of telephone

It's HN - everyone did the latter.

l-one-lone 9 hours ago||
The terminology is confusing. Under the PPWR, a “producer” is not necessarily someone who manufactures packaging. The regulation also covers businesses selling packaging or packaged products directly to end users in another Member State. So a maker shipping a board in an envelope can indeed be the packaging producer for EPR purposes.
IsTom 8 hours ago||
Having looked into FAQ[1] it seems that it's mostly the case if you sell in branded packaging and are >10 people or >2M eur revenue.

[1]https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/ad1...

kakoni 6 hours ago||
According to the PPWR rules, if you (as a webshop) package your shipment in non-branded box and send it from another EU country to another, then you are considered to be manufacturer(=you were the first to bring this into market) and EPR/PPWR rules apply. There is no exemption for this.
anigbrowl 2 hours ago||
I'm more inclined to believe the person who backed up their argument with a citation, especially after looking at the document they linked which expressly contradicts you.
Freak_NL 5 hours ago||
No idea if this applies to the whole of the EU, but the government designated critters responsible for this in the Netherlands mention that business that ship less than 50 tons of packaging material, and don't use single-use plastics are exempt.

https://www.verpact.nl/nl/nieuw-bij-verpakkings-epr-zo-regel...

rrmdp 2 hours ago|
This is really sad to read :(

So many entrepreneurs (who can because software businesses) are leaving EU

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