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Posted by speckx 17 hours ago

Bomb fishing is wreaking havoc on Indonesia's coral reefs(e360.yale.edu)
297 points | 154 commentspage 3
shevy-java 14 hours ago|
Well - bombs sounds fancy. How about those huge trawlers that drag everything out? Does not sound as dangerous as bomb fishing. But destroys more than bomb fishing objectively.
epolanski 16 hours ago||
We truly deserve to get extinct. There's nothing but selfishness and greed from Wall Street to San Francisco to the Indonesian fisheries and Indian farms.
voakbasda 16 hours ago||
[flagged]
21asdffdsa12 16 hours ago|||
Ahistoric defeatism. Embraces our nature, instead of fleeing for the hills of utopism. Learn to steer it, change it. We accomplished wonders- humanity is calm and peaceful compared to what it once was.

The gaming industry and cellphones alone have pacified a species whose footprint is ever shrinking. Literal monks with hypnotic glowing stones, this whole industry is a miracle and has given nature a breather it would not have had without it.

red-iron-pine 13 hours ago|||
ever shrinking? mon ami we're collapsing the global ecological system.

soon humanity will be the only footprint that matters.

cindyllm 16 hours ago|||
[dead]
karim79 16 hours ago|||
Let's not forget the scorpions. They also deserve a turn.
21asdffdsa12 16 hours ago|||
They would do the exact same as humanity given the tech. Natural organism doing natural things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson_Island_(Pitcairn_Isl...

KellyCriterion 15 hours ago||||
For context, if one missed it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Love,_Not_Warcraft

timcobb 16 hours ago||||
The scorpions and cockroaches will have to fight it out. Life will go on.
zmgsabst 15 hours ago|||
Scorpions had a turn when the giant ones preyed on our lungfish ancestors.

This is our turn; eg, similarly dinosaurs preying on proto-mammals and our abuses of avians.

quietsignal 16 hours ago||
Note that the selfishness of the farmer or fisherman may in certain light differ from the greed of the capitalist, if one’s family endurance depends on it.
TSiege 16 hours ago|||
If you read the article it’s pretty clear this is greed and short sighted thinking

> While understudied, the incentives for the use of dangerous dynamite fishing are often falsely attributed solely to poverty and desperation. The cost barrier to buying boats, bombs, and detonators means it’s more likely a practice for middle-income fishers, according to experts.

“A combination of factors drives blast fishing, including ineffective enforcement and management,” said Hampton-Smith, highlighting how indiscriminate the explosions are, killing all manner of species, regardless of age, size, or intent.

epolanski 16 hours ago||||
Those are nothing but excuses.

Destroying habitats and the future of fellow fishermen for short-term gain is just selfishness and greed.

Desperation is no excuse.

TSiege 16 hours ago|||
To those replying that it’s feeding starving children read the article. The equipment to do this isn’t accessible to poor fishermen. From the article, “While understudied, the incentives for the use of dangerous dynamite fishing are often falsely attributed solely to poverty and desperation. The cost barrier to buying boats, bombs, and detonators means it’s more likely a practice for middle-income fishers, according to experts.”

I’d argue this practice hurts poor fisherman more than helps as coral reefs are important nurseries for fish and reliable sources as well. Blowing them up will rob communities of shallow fishing grounds and future fish

eloisius 16 hours ago||||
Easy to say when it’s not your child facing starvation. The long term doesn’t matter if your family isn’t going to make it another month.
Avicebron 16 hours ago||
RTFA, they say they it's not poverty, the explosives and boats involved mean that it's not the desperate doing this. It's greed, the sooner we can be less paternalistic about this kind of stuff the sooner we can start addressing these kind of problems. It's like India or china being major polluters, they need to be held accountable just like the west holds/held itself accountable.
zmgsabst 15 hours ago||
I enjoy when HN engages in overt racism like this — eg, denying peer agency and morality to SE Asians, due to the posters feeling above those “lessers”.

Paternalistic racism might as well be a central tenet of certain political movements — whose entire ideology is that certain humans are not fully equal as thinking moral agents in the world.

The new “scientific racism”.

eloisius 8 hours ago||
I think you read a lot into my comment that’s not there. I replied to someone who wrote “ Desperation is no excuse.”

Developed countries are rich after centuries of extracting natural resources, to the point that Europe is nearly deforested, American rivers in the rust belt used to catch on fire from chemical pollution, and we destroyed a pacific atoll with over 20 nuclear bombs.

A little rich for us to suddenly care about the coral so much that we can lecture developing countries about it. In this case, it doesn’t seem these are the acts of desperate people, but the arrogance of someone who will probably never face hardship beyond “ramen profitability” saying desperation is no excuse is astounding.

zmgsabst 5 hours ago||
Desperation is no excuse for anti-social behavior.

I am calling out exactly that sentiment, because it removes the intelligence, agency, and morality from the people you’re discussing by reducing them to animals. You call them lessers and stop holding them to the same standard — and that so many did so here, despite poverty being unrelated, is precisely the evidence their motivation for doing so was racial stereotypes and not facts.

You see the same with, eg, excusing gangland violence as “poverty”, despite areas with much higher poverty (including foreign nations) not experiencing the same anti-social behavior.

eloisius 1 hour ago||
Like I said, you're reading a lot more into what I wrote, than what I actually wrote. No one is more or less responsible for their actions on account of being Indonesian. And I've already agreed that in this case it appears not to be the result of desperate acts, but I am replying specifically on the point that "desperation is no excuse." Responsibility for most desperate situations begin way further upstream. I wonder if you hold your colleagues working at Meta to the same anti-social behavior standards, or yourself if you drive to work when taking the bus would only mean a few hours of inconvenience.
horacemorace 16 hours ago|||
Say that again when your children are starving.
rdiddly 15 hours ago|||
Thanks to these assholes destroying entire fisheries, I might not have to wait long.
pvaldes 9 hours ago|||
Sell the bombs and buy food with the money?

If you have money for buying bombs, you have money for a fishing rod to feed your children for the entire year.

parineum 16 hours ago|||
Anything beyond ascetic maximalism will be cast as greed to the naturists and malthusians.

There's always someone out there who is going to make the argument.

epolanski 13 hours ago||
There aren't many more reasons but greed to destroy ecosystems with bombs and detonators.
bamboozled 9 hours ago||
It’s wild that people are this dumb.

I’m sure if you told an indigenous tribe you were planning to do this they’d agree that it’s stupid, yet here we are.

mbmbn 15 hours ago||
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bcjdjsndon 16 hours ago||
Send them some subsidies from those large American coffers then, and they won't need to
paimapi 16 hours ago|
blunt comment but not technically wrong - it's likely poverty and subsistence living that's driving adoption of this 'technique' and much of that originates from a combination of the colonial carve up of Indonesia [0] in combination with the weak and easily exploited position of the country within globalized economic markets [1]

[0] https://law.wm.edu/academics/intellectuallife/researchcenter...

>Centuries of Dutch control produced an ethnic and economic caste system familiar to many colonized peoples. Compared to some imperial powers, Dutch policy was less focused on “Dutchifying” the indigenous population, with most attention paid to resource extraction and maritime strategic advantage.

[1] https://archive.org/details/ahmad-nashih-luthfi-muhammad-fau...

>The short cut to development that the New Order took was highly depending on foreign loans. Consequently, development models were very much shaped by the foreign institutions that became the source of finance for Indonesia. At the end of the 1980s for instance, the World Bank forced for the project for the construction of Kedung Ombo Dam [...] The construction of the Dam had caused thousands of people and tens of villages to be evicted and involuntarily resettled. The Dam became the symbol of prestige for the New Order. When the New Order regime collapsed, the dam was abandoned and gradually left to dry.

Poacher5 16 hours ago|||
That's addressed in the article? The claim made is that this is more a way of middle-income market-trading fishermen increasing their catch and profit. Those at the bottom can't afford the necessary explosives.
paimapi 16 hours ago|||
that's an uncited claim framed as a guess, not confirmation or even a more educated guess by people performing actual ethnographies and larger demographic analysis. pair it against both the fact that these bombs are easy to make (plastic bottle + explosive) and the stronger kinship ties of families and villages, it's not impossible to imagine groups pooling money to purchase fertilizer on the gray market

you'd have to imagine that higher earners would easily be able to navigate out to deeper waters with better boats whereas lower income would stay in shallower waters which is noted as largely where this is happening

mushi_shi 16 hours ago|||
Yeah, why go through all of the effort to blame this on colonialism? Maybe these people just suck and don't care/don't know any better. We can't make everything a problem of colonialism.
zmgsabst 15 hours ago||
They feel superior to those “lesser” humans, when denying them equal intelligence, agency, and morality.

They’re just getting off on being racist to the “savages who don’t know better”.

joshuaissac 16 hours ago|||
> it's likely poverty and subsistence living that's driving adoption of this 'technique'

From the article:

> While understudied, the incentives for the use of dangerous dynamite fishing are often falsely attributed solely to poverty and desperation.

> The cost barrier to buying boats, bombs, and detonators means it’s more likely a practice for middle-income fishers, according to experts.

parineum 16 hours ago|||
How big of a boat do you think you need to scoop up some fish?

None of those things cost a lot of money and the return on investment for just affording a single bomb pays for itself almost immediately.

paimapi 16 hours ago|||
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heyitsmedotjayb 16 hours ago|
I bet many of the people here moaning and whinging eat fish themselves!
kubb 16 hours ago||
I bet almost nobody here eats bombfished fish. <0.1%
spindump8930 16 hours ago|||
> While fishers predominantly use the method to catch fish for sale at local markets — identifiable by their ruptured internal organs and burst swim bladders

The article agrees, assuming "here" is global north tech workers.

heyitsmedotjayb 16 hours ago|||
No fishers, no food.
kubb 16 hours ago|||
Incoherent, broken logic.
everdrive 16 hours ago|||
No bombs, no fishers.
aqfamnzc 15 hours ago||
Damn, watertight logic
micromacrofoot 15 hours ago||
What's the point of this post? if you're trying to shame people into vegetarianism it's not going to work, and I'm one myself.

There's basically one solution to bomb fishing: make it economically nonviable. You could ban it an punish the people doing it, which is often the immediate action taken and seems like the path being set up here...

but really any money spent on enforcement may be better spent on setting the bomb fishers up with the tools to make a living doing something else — ironically "teach a man to fish"