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Posted by Velocifyer 13 hours ago

An ongoing 3D-printer AGPL violation(lwn.net)
364 points | 163 commentspage 3
tamimio 9 hours ago|
I wasn’t following bambu-drama, what’s a good alternative that have equal good quality/precision and won’t require taking a loan to buy?
VorpalWay 9 hours ago||
Prusa is good, a bit more expensive (since it is made in EU), but I wouldn't say it is "needs a loan" more expensive (of course depending on what model, they have small scale industrial offerings too).

I understand Snapmaker has been getting some good press lately (especially the Snapmaker U1), and it would be cheaper than the equivalent Prusa and they are more open than Bambu (so far) in their deals with open source.

My only personal experience is with Prusa (and I'm a happy customer). Their machines are also built to be serviable, which matters for print farm style usage, I have heard that a Bambu just doesn't last more than a year or two in that environment. Prusas just keep going as long as you lube the bearings every now and then.

happyopossum 7 hours ago||
> a bit more expensive

$750 vs $1,750 is not a bit more...

[0] P2S with AMS vs Core One + MMU

knowaveragejoe 2 hours ago||
The A1s/As minis are dead cheap. I don't know if you'll find anything much better for a competitive price, frankly.
amazingamazing 11 hours ago||
In the AI age do such things matter? I am surprised they have not reimplemented at this point.
dspillett 9 hours ago|
You mean doing an AI based "clean room" reimplenentation? IIRC the jury is still out on the validity of that technique (though I expect it will turn out that the practise is not actionable as other similar decisions have gone that way), but even if that is deemed perfectly legal and would get them out of the requirement for future releases, they should still release the code for the versions that are subject to the license.
LoganDark 12 hours ago||
Is it even possible to sue a China-based company from the US? Would you even be able to seek any remedy other than banning import/sale of its product?
spott 11 hours ago||
Banning import/sale of the product into the US is worth a hell of a lot.
LoganDark 9 hours ago||
I wouldn't call that a win, though. I have a Bambu printer and it's very difficult to reproduce their tuning on open-source hardware or software. I think Klipper has vibration compensation now, but pressure advance and some other things require some tinkering and waste in order to set correctly, and you have to re-do them on any new nozzle/filament/temperature. Deciding nobody can have the software at all is completely opposite to the spirit of the license. "Yay, thanks to our challenge about this AGPL-licensed code, now even the binary is no longer available!" Sure, you can say it's harmful to the community to have features available without source code, but I wouldn't want the only alternative to be simply not having those features. (Anti-features are an exception)
dspillett 9 hours ago||
> Deciding nobody can have the software at all is completely opposite to the spirit of the license.

Any import block would be on the hardware, not the software. And the software would need to be released for other territories anyway.

LoganDark 9 hours ago||
As a buyer I'd be just as unhappy to be unable to get the hardware. I already have some, but if I wanted some new feature it doesn't have and that open-source definitely doesn't have, I'd be miffed to say the least if I couldn't get it just because Bambu didn't release the source code.
tylergetsay 12 hours ago|||
Presumably they have _some_ assets in the USA
nekusar 12 hours ago|||
Sure block them.

Or they can pay statutory maximum copyright violations of $120000 per copy violated.

Per copy.

LoganDark 11 hours ago||
This sounds more like a wish?
polski-g 12 hours ago||
They could sue amazon to get a list of Bambu buyers, then go after them.
ChickeNES 10 hours ago||
You want them to go after the buyers??
polski-g 9 hours ago||
Yes. It's the only way to cause material harm to the company.
icehawk 9 hours ago|||
How does that work when the buyers have already paid?
ChickeNES 9 hours ago|||
Not at all, do you not understand how customs works? What cause of action do you propose against the buyers? Do you not care about the law, you just want maximum retribution?
Aurornis 12 hours ago||
> Kühn said; they often rely on mechanisms that an actual judge is not going to care about. In this case, Bambu Studio would pop up a request to download "a little more stuff" with the classic choices of "Yes" or "Ask me later"; users eventually figure out that some functionality in the slicer does not work until they click "Yes". The extras that are downloaded are two .so files built from C++ source. Those shared-library files are dynamically loaded into the slicer—as can plainly be seen from the dlopen() calls in the source code that was released.

This seems to be the main complaint: They ship a separate .so as a plugin.

Saying that an actual judge is not going to care about it is confusing. Is this or is it not consistent with the license? Why wouldn't a judge care about something that is a license violation? I don't get it.

> violating GPLv2 by not providing the source for a Buildroot-based Linux (and other copyleft components) used in the firmware of some 3D-printer models. He downloaded the 300MB firmware image from the Bambu Lab web site, but was unable to find the source or an offer to provide it.

This was the first hit when I googled it: https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/knowledge-sharing/open-source-s.... Includes the e-mail address opensource@bambulab.com for requests

Is there some other technicality that I'm missing?

> Bambu Lab needed a slicer, of course, so it started shipping a modified PrusaSlicer (as Bambu Studio), which it was able to get via the AGPLv3, but without shipping any source code or an offer to provide it. That continued up through 2022 or 2023, Kühn said, until the pressure from the 3D-printing community effectively forced Bambu Lab to make a source release, which was, as is almost always the case for a first release, not the actual corresponding source code.

I googled Bambu's first Kickstarter. It shows July 2022 as the estimated ship date.

The BambuStudio repo has public issues from July 2022 with public user comments - https://github.com/bambulab/BambuStudio/issues/12

So the repo was public and available around the time that the Kickstarter ended. Seems fair? He acts like they were refusing until the community forced them to do it a year later, but the repo was live and open when the printers shipped.

I get that Bambu is supposed to be the enemy and we're not supposed to defend the enemy unless we want a lot of downvotes, but the reporting on this issue seems lacking any fact checking. I didn't try very hard but found contradictory evidence in the first Google link for several of the claims. The article is quoting someone speaking from memory to an audience so mistakes are understandable, but I would at minimum expect some cursory fact checking for someone reporting on it.

teddyh 10 hours ago||
Like JoshTriplett explains in other places in this thread, Kühn means that the judge will not care about Bambu Studio’s workarounds; i.e. that the judge will see through these as the tricks they are, and not allow Bambu Studio to get away with it.
hWuxH 2 hours ago||
* 2022-05-23: KickStarter launch, distributing Bambu Studio binaries to every backer, reviewer and influencer *without source code*. They also sanitized the About dialog and removed any open-source attributions, AGPL disclosures, or links to the underlying PrusaSlicer/Slic3r code. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BambuLab/comments/vnzpie/comment/ie...](https://www.reddit.com/r/BambuLab/comments/vnzpie/comment/ie...)

* 2022-05-29: Admitted it's based on PrusaSlicer [https://blog.bambulab.com/to-open-or-not-to-open-that-is-the...](https://blog.bambulab.com/to-open-or-not-to-open-that-is-the...) * "We would like to ask for the understanding of the community to give us some time *before we open-source* Parts 1 and 2, which is scheduled for the second half of this year." - admitted it's currently an AGPL violation

* 2022-06-29: Evidence. "GPL requires release of source the moment binaries are out. Many people have had the binaries for weeks. They are 100% in violation". [https://x.com/DreadMakerAdam/status/1542216014984876036](https://x.com/DreadMakerAdam/status/1542216014984876036)

* ???

* 2022-07-15: They only dumped it (with prior git history squashed) onto GitHub months after the initial release, after immense community pressure. [https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenBambu/comments/1thfslw/comment/...](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenBambu/comments/1thfslw/comment/...) [https://github.com/bambulab/BambuStudio/issues/1](https://github.com/bambulab/BambuStudio/issues/1)

aaron695 5 hours ago||
[dead]
Der_Einzige 11 hours ago||
I am gleeful at the idea that courts can't actually enforce open source compliance.

If your response is "Let's force TPP-style international trade courts to force AGPL compliance", well, you're the globalist that Bernie Sanders rightfully warned about and people like trump pretended/lied about being against as justification for why they get elected. I hope you never get what you want. The same crap will be used to patent surgical procedures and other IP in ways that are horrible for society.

You want to do fake software viral communism that's incompatible with how the legal system operates? You're poor as shit and can't hire good lawyers vs business because capitalism isn't favorable to you? That's why you're supposed to engineer something better than crapitalism. This is a grand challenge for the FOSS movement and why I am still broadly supportive of the reasons why someone like RMS votes/voted for the green party (and yes I know they are these days loony/crazy/compromised by the FSB)

Real FOSS is MIT. Learn to make your fake viral communist license have teeth or forever persist in this doomed world you have created.

sneak 12 hours ago||
FWIW the AGPL (which is a nonfree EULA trying to masquerade as a copyright license) has never been tested in court, so the fact that it is nonsensical has yet to actually be adjudicated.

Software and services aren’t the same, and the anticapitalist zealots at the FSF can’t square this circle no matter how hard they try.

deepspace 7 hours ago||
The person I am replying to is an obvious troll, but it is worth mentioning that there is very little to "test in court". Basic copyright law says that you cannot copy someone else's code and distribute software based thereon. *GPL* provides a workaround, provided that you follow the terms of the license. If a court were to invalidate all of AGPL, the default fallback would simply be that nobody is able to distribute the software.
bluGill 11 hours ago|||
Generally, when you ask people who have any understanding of law, they respond, well, of course not. No one with any sanity at all would try and test the GPL in court. They know what's going to hold up.

I do believe that the GPL will eventually be broken. However, it won't be broken in ways such as happening now. It'll be broken when some company is able to show the court that they were doing a lot of things to ensure they weren't going to violate the GPL. And yet a rogue employee, unknown to the rest of the company, violated it despite being told not to. I don't know exactly what the courts will decide in this case. It's still going to come down to the copyright violation. However, it likely won't be a source code release. The GPL will hold up, they will just say the written requirements are to much and ??? . But again, this will only happen after the courts take a very detailed look at all the things the company is doing to ensure they didn't violate the GPL in the first place, which means we are likely looking at many, many years before the first such case. Anyone who isn't aware of the GPL and taking a lot of active effort to ensure they're not violating it, they won't be able to pull off this defense after the fact.

toast0 5 hours ago|||
> And yet a rogue employee, unknown to the rest of the company, violated it despite being told not to. I don't know exactly what the courts will decide in this case. It's still going to come down to the copyright violation. However, it likely won't be a source code release.

I would expect a court to compell a defendant to either comply with the license or cease distribution and possibly pay damages for unauthorized distribution... But I don't know that there's a good way to figure the damages and US statuatory damages likely don't apply because who registers their copyrights for open source code (or deposits copies with the Library of Congress)?

Infringement by a rouge employee, acting against policy, may be reason to limit punitve damages and stick to actual damages... But if it's an actual rogue employee acting against policy, I would expect the company to cease infringement, begin compliance, or negotiate for an alternative solution once notified about the issue anyway.

ChickeNES 10 hours ago|||
You're talking about the GPL though, OP was talking the AGPL
bluGill 9 hours ago||
For this discussion it makes no difference.
ChickeNES 9 hours ago||
It very much does, as this is a AGPL violation being discussed, not a GPL violation.
dspillett 9 hours ago|||
By "it doesn't make a difference" they meant that the argument applies equally for both, and if it fails for one it fails for both.
hWuxH 2 hours ago|||
it literally makes no difference for the bambustsudio program you download. GPL has the same corresponding source clause
Der_Einzige 11 hours ago||
Yup. IP abolitionism it turns out is a sword that can slay yourself too. I support abolishing it even to the point of making all EULA unenforceable for good.
zamalek 11 hours ago||
It is so much worse than "just" AGPL, YouTube happened to rec this to me yesterday: https://youtu.be/mAm-kpiHRcw. Granted, there are much worse and more pressing evils in our world, but Bambu is just pure and utter evil.
Mohamed_Mansour 11 hours ago||
Which is better parrot or kali Linux? I think it's parrot
select1 11 hours ago|
I have no issue with this. Bambu makes good products, the AGPL does not give you a license to access someone else's cloud servers.
dspillett 9 hours ago|
> does not give you a license to access someone else's cloud servers

That is not what people are asking for.