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Posted by zdw 1 day ago

Creepy Crawlies(people.kernel.org)
1165 points | 579 commentspage 8
tarpitt 19 hours ago|
Maybe you could have a system that heuristicially detects when an crawler is making the request and then feeds them a modified page, itself generated from an LLM, that injects vulnerabilities and bad code and discussion and such.
NooneAtAll3 18 hours ago|
it's hard to separate spambot that only accesses 3-5 links per IP and a legit user. Changing content for legit user can be devastating
inigyou 14 hours ago||
Put a cookie wall in front. The bot will either load the cookie and have a persistent identifier, or not load the cookie and not get in
jay_kyburz 13 hours ago||
why is this not the answer? then you can also rate limit each cookie as well.
sgsjchs 11 hours ago||
it'll load the cookie, make one request, move to a different ip, load the cookie, make one request, move to a different ip, ...
inigyou 5 hours ago|||
Why are you serving new cookies to someone who already has a cookie?
sgsjchs 1 hour ago||
It discards the cookie after one request and appears as a new user.
jay_kyburz 7 hours ago|||
If you are discovering urls you have to wait for a previous request to finish. The rate limit should work. Requests without a cookie wait 2 seconds. Request with cookies can only make human scale number of requests per second? (1?)

If you have a thousands of IP addresses, and you know all the urls you want to request in advance, you can just request them all simultaneously I guess.

The next more advanced version is that URLs are unique to your cookie.

Users can't share urls anymore, but it might be a tradeoff worth making. Unique urls for each user.

You could probably still make this work, if you share your url with another user, they get the page, but heavily rate limited like a regular no cookie request. (a cookie url mismatch gets the rate limited version of the page)

bourse_lee 15 hours ago||
What if Anubis computations were turned into a crypto-miner
throwawayffffas 51 minutes ago||
The whole concept behind Anubis is flawed. It tries to block access by imposing a compute cost to block people that are using incredible amounts of compute just to generate and parse the requests.

The people that Anubis tries to block have tons of compute to spare.

For example at runpod, if you rent a container with just one B300, you get 32 cpu cores and 250 gbs or ram that are essentially just sitting there while the gpu does all the work. If you think you can impose a compute cost on these people without blocking everyone else, well think again.

Or in my case, I am running qwen3.8 at home on a couple of gpus, these are attached on 32 core epyc server with 128gb of ram I am pretty sure i have more compute than the typical dev laptop.

I am of course nice, and don't aggressively scrape peoples services.

fer 14 hours ago||
Browsers, at least Firefox, blocks crypto-miners. How to tell legitimate from underhanded crypto-mining?
dunlin 10 hours ago||
Reminds me of debugging production issues at 3 AM. Both can make you jump out of your skin.
talkingtab 12 hours ago||
Time to F*$k the internet. The whole concept of anonymous IP addresses was broken but worked for a long time. Now it is just stupid. Just like domain names. (Are more names used by squatters than real?). And email as identity? Time to engineer solutions and create a new protocol layer.

This is not a hard problem. It just requires that someone build a certification wall. The IETF should have done this long ago, right?

kgeist 14 hours ago||
How about: "Type the seahorse emoji to solve the CAPTCHA" :) Something that triggers infinite loops in LLMs or trips the guardrails.
RGamma 12 hours ago|
Kitboga (guy who trolls scammers) has some funny CAPTCHA setups if you need inspiration. E.g. https://youtube.com/watch?v=TOzEnwl7LkA
vist_orn 10 hours ago||
Real creepy crawlies in the server rack are always a bigger surprise than any code bug.
boredatoms 12 hours ago||
Can I suggest putting some text in the page that tells the bot what the more efficient download method is?
zbentley 8 hours ago|
What makes you think that would accomplish anything?

These scrapers aren't LLM agents. They're distributed classical programs that harvest data which is later used to train an LLM. The LLM doesn't write the scraper or respond to individual scrape events. The entity training the LLM contracts someone, who contracts someone, who contracts someone to run a web scraper and send them the data.

hubraumhugo 5 hours ago||
There is a HN article on abusive AI crawlers on the front page almost every week, but we rarely talk about the path forward. Web scraping has been around for as long as the internet, and it was fine because we had established best practices (rate limiting, self-identification, robots.txt, etc.) that the industry agreed upon. Now we have AI labs and their crawlers that don't care about any of this gentlemen's agreement.

So how do we go from here? Is adding more difficult Anubis and Cloudflare bot protection really the solution? How many millions of human hours and billions in infra costs are we willing to spend on this arms race?

Some approaches that I think are promising:

- A robots.txt V2[0] as a standard way for website owners to state how bots and AI crawlers can use their online content and where to go (e.g. distinguish search from AI training use cases, point to a downloadable file instead of crawling everything, etc.).

- Something like Web Bot Auth[1] as a non-centralized standard for self-identifying bots and agents cryptographically. This would allow websites to allow or deny bots very precisely.

- what else?

[0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vaughan-machine-reada...

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-meunier-http-mes...

lxgr 17 hours ago||
> [...] when a source is guaranteed to be LLM-free, like the entire history of kernel commits [...]

Is that really the case? It was my understanding that LLM-based agents were explicitly allowed as long as their users follow certain guidelines [1]?

And more generally: Somehow the theory of "essentially all bot traffic is AI labs crawling the Internet for LLM training data" doesn't make sense to me at all. There are at best dozens of labs capable of running their own crawl at Internet scale, but hundreds of millions of people using LLMs to answer their questions. (If my personal LLM usage is any indication, firing off dozens or hundreds of web fetches to answer a single question is not unusual.)

While I understand that many existing projects have been resourced only for human readers and might as a result be struggling due to this, this characterization sounds a bit dishonest to me.

And unfortunately, for this use case (i.e. ephemeral queries in a context possibly lacking storage or git access), forking the individual repo to answer a handful of string match queries against it might just be more expensive than to run that query against a web search index and then just fetch those results over HTTP.

The solution would accordingly also look very different, as caching at the inference layer is significantly harder than at the training one (where it's most likely already widely done as that seems like a no-brainer).

[1] https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html

alkonaut 17 hours ago|
Proof-of-humanity can’t come soon enough.

We’re talking about privacy-preserving proof of age, but as we see here the real utility of such a system will be proof of humanity.

Arubis 17 hours ago|
How do you define humanity?

How do you ensure it includes every human?

How do you ensure it doesn’t include every non-human?

I’m not even asking about computation or algorithms. I straight up don’t think you can make a definition that isn’t a tautology or an approximation. Both of which are useful, but neither of which can fit a _proof_.

alkonaut 14 hours ago|||
Every place on earth has some legal definition of who is human. The system I’m thinking of isn’t a technical/captcha one, it’s a human curated list of humans. Just an electronic ID. Those already exist but the challenge is making them (acceptably) privacy-preserving.

I want to take my existing national digital ID and use it online basically. BUT I don’t want the websites to know it’s me. Just that I’m human (or perhaps over a certain age). And I don’t want the ID issuer to know what site/service asked whether I’m a human or I’m 18 etc.

Kamq 16 hours ago|||
You're not wrong, but something can work well enough to still be useful despite falling short of the idea of a proof or any formal definition.

Let's say that 95% of individual humans can pass it and only 2% of bots. For someone maintaining a website, who has to decide between using this system and shutting down their site because of the increased costs, that may very well be good enough

Arubis 16 hours ago|||
That’s a pragmatic and understandable argument. And for an individual hobbyist site owner, that’s fine. Are we okay with excluding 1 person in 20 from the services of a midsized organization? What if they’re integral to the workplace? Or a major transport provider without differentiated competitors? What if the organization is a state government?
inigyou 14 hours ago|||
I'm one of the 5% apparently, cloudflare thinks I'm a bot. I suppose you'll exempt me in exchange for all my ID documents and bank statements?
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