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Posted by randycupertino 16 hours ago

Biggest dark matter detector spots a single weird particle(www.science.org)
270 points | 89 commentspage 2
advisedwang 12 hours ago|
> Such behavior could require dark matter to be more complicated than just a single new type of particle. For example, the dark matter particle might have some internal structure, like an ordinary atom, so it would only interact if hit hard enough to excite it to a higher energy internal state

I get a little shiver imagining that the dark matter might be something like ordinary atoms. Imagine that other 85% of the universe could have its own parallel atomic table, chemistry, even some kind of life utterly alien to us?

isomorphic 11 hours ago||
I've heard this referred to as a "dark sector", or "hidden sector":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_sector

The scary thought is that, were it true that there is voluminous richly-interacting dark matter, we would be the actual dark sector.

kstrauser 10 hours ago||
"Imagine a universe, like ours, overlapping ours, except where some of its matter spontaneously rips itself apart, and other matter can be mashed together if you squeeze it hard enough." "That's nightmare fuel! Fortunately it's probably impossible, so far as we can tell."

I can imagine other scary thoughts, though. Ever read any Warhammer lore?

hyperhello 12 hours ago|||
It's possible that there could be an entirely different charge mechanism that works exactly like ours but they don't interact at all; but the whole premise of dark matter is that it doesn't seem to have any self-interaction outside of gravity.
gizmo686 10 hours ago||
The premise of dark matter is that it is something with gravity that does not otherwise interact with any of our detectors (e.g. "normal" matter); or that any such interactions are weak enough that it is plausible we have not noticed.

By itself, that does not exclude the possibility of dark matter having other interactions which do not interfere with our detectors.

stouset 8 hours ago|||
Our observations are much more consistent with a form of dark matter which does not self-interact, or which does so incredibly weakly.

Don’t ask me how or why, but this is essentially the universal (pun intended) consensus amongst cosmologists.

terminalbraid 8 hours ago|||
That doesn't rule out "dark matter having other interactions which do not interfere with our detectors" Dark sector theories which include other dark particles or new particle interactions are not controversial amongst cosmologists in this space. For example there's a whole area of study around "dark photons" which would mix with our photons and interact with dark matter.
hyperhello 10 hours ago||||
I guess so. If you could sort of measure the dark matter distribution, there might be a structure under it, but strictly speaking isn’t it limited to saying it’s not at least likely to emit light but does have mass.
marcosdumay 6 hours ago||||
It's very hard to explain the gravitational halo around the galaxies if your dark matter can interact with itself. If it interacted like normal matter, it would have a distribution similar to the gases, and not spread way into intergalactic space.
XorNot 9 hours ago|||
But it does bound it: if dark matter has self-interactions then the apparent distribution would be different. Regular matter forms stars and galaxies and all the structures we see because it can self-interact.

Since where we see dark matter mass shadows we don't see structure formation, what self interaction it may have must be very, very limited.

T-A 7 hours ago||
You might like this old paper then:

https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0660v1

scotty79 14 hours ago||
Why couldn't it be just a weirdly energetic neutrino originating from the neighborhood of some black hole?
physicsdude 12 hours ago||
At some level, it could be (and that would be an great discovery as well!). It's a question of probabilities: it's unlikely to be any of the things that we already know about, but that doesn't mean that it's something new. Unlikely things happen --- infrequently. As stressed in the article and elsewhere in comments, more data should elucidate what is going on. That's the difficulty of these kinds of searches: there is one event, and we can't make clear, confident statements about one event.
hershkumar 5 hours ago|||
I actually saw one of the authors present the data yesterday, one of the audience comments was indeed that this could be explained by an astrophysical neutrino striking the detector (all other neutrino sources have energy thresholds much lower than the detected data), but the data on astrophysical neutrinos is sparse (in part why detectors like IceCube exist), so I believe the argument is that the chances that an astrophysical neutrino would strike the detector is negligible.
scotty79 1 hour ago||
Thank you very much for this first hand info. One might argue that chances of theoretical particle existing and showing up are at least as negligible.
procflora 12 hours ago||
Based on my very amateurish skim of this and a related paper, maybe so? They simulated the neutrino background as solar and cosmic ray atmospheric sources, so any source with a different energy distribution is perhaps a possible explanation for the event, I think.

But probably more likely is for this to have been a particularly energetic event in the tail of one of the known sources of neutron recoil detection they did model. More events needed!

parineum 14 hours ago||
> If the new result is real, more signals should emerge soon. LZ researchers have already collected three times as much data as they used in the paper.

It sounds like this implies they've seen 3x more events but it seems like they would have said that if it were the case. Have they just gathered more data about the single event or is this 4 separate events they're talking about?

SaberTail 14 hours ago||
Detectors like this work on exposure. They're always on (except for calibration and maintenance), waiting for events to happen. This paper was written with 2.8 tonne-years of data. That is, 4.7 tonnes of liquid xenon for a little mmore than half a year. The detector has 7 tonnes, and the 4.7 number reflects cuts they made on parts of the detector that either they don't understand as well, or have higher backgrounds.

As they better understand the detector, they can use more of that mass. They have data from it, but they just didn't use it. And they're always collecting more data, too, as time passes.

So the 3x is saying they have something like 8.5 tonne-years of data.

lofaszvanitt 12 hours ago||
Hm, they have 7 tonnes of Xenon. Events detected all around in the matter, but the PMTs can localise where the event happened. So they can virtually segment parts of the detector where they are sure all the outside effects are understood and taken care of.
IsTom 14 hours ago|||
If this anything like CERN detectors, they get amounts of data so vast that they have to discard almost all of it to be even able to record it. Depending on heurestics you use to discard data you might be discarding what you are looking for and after adjustment will get some new interesting events, but still actually processing the candidates might take a long time.
physicsdude 12 hours ago||
This raises what is (I think) an interesting question. CERN is a collider, so they are _trying_ to produce lots of stuff, and they do (lots and lots of stuff). They can't write it all to disk, and most of it isn't interesting enough to try.

The work being done here falls into the category of "low background physics" --- they aren't trying to produce anything, and actually put quite a bit of effort into doing the opposite, by removing all sources of particles (e.g. sourcing materials free of radioactive contaminants, physically cleaning all surfaces and purifying all fluids involved, etc).

So the detector, if built properly, is fairly quiet, and you try to write as much data to disk as you can (e.g., if something even fairly-potentially interesting happens, you save it). Then when you analyze the data like this, you ignore the majority of what you've got --- only a teeny fraction makes it into an analysis of this caliber.

thiagotomei 6 hours ago||
I think this description is essentially correct.
gus_massa 14 hours ago||
They collected x3 more hay, and they still have to processes it and try to find any needle mixed with it.

Hopefully it the new data may have 3 additional events, or perhaps 2 or perhaps 4 or perhaps 10 or perhaps... Or the reported event may be false event caused by a lucky coincidence, and they may find 0 additional events.

DrJokepu 8 hours ago||
This is 1σ. It’s fun and interesting, but means nothing.
marcosdumay 6 hours ago|
> LZ physicists estimate there’s about a one in 200 chance the event is a statistical fluke

That's more than 3σ.

wewewedxfgdf 7 hours ago||
Such detectors will never see dark matter because it is little black holes.
throwawayffffas 7 hours ago|
Depending on the size of the black holes these detectors can see them.
I_am_tiberius 6 hours ago|
i have zero knowledge of physics, but I just can't believe something like dark matter exists. My intuition is that some math just isn't correct and falls apart at the scales of the observable universe. No idea what equations are used for getting to the reslut of having 85% unexplained matter in the universe, but I really assume there's just a constant missing or our math in general just inaccurate or not considering specific effects.
root_axis 6 hours ago||
I'm not a physicist either, but the amount of evidence pointing in the direction of dark matter is extremely significant, it's a little silly to just dismiss all that based on your intuition.
defrost 6 hours ago|||
> No idea what equations are used for getting to the result

"Basic" gravitational equations applied to observed behaviour: clumping and rotation of galaxies, lensing (light bending), etc.

The behaviour implies "something" is exerting force in a mass like way - but there's a shortfall of visible mass.

The observational hole left by the apparent behaviour of "unseen matter" attracts a lot of theory.

* Physics "allows for" various types of particles with various types of properties - these may or may not all exist, some do. eg: Neutrino's from the sun barely interact with anything, consistently capturing them is a challenge. Maybe Dark Matter is a new hard to observe gravity particle.

* Physics has equations formed by "human scale" observation and sometimes tweaked for scales beyond direct human experience. eg: relativistic tweaks related to speeds approaching that of light. Maybe Dark Matter is a warping of observation at galaxy scale.

The opening paragraphs of, say, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter cover the ground of speculation.

magicalhippo 5 hours ago|||
For those who are interested in learning why physicists think dark matter exists, there's an excellent and accessible talk[1] freely available over at PIRSA where an astrophysicist goes through exactly what we know about the universe and how many different kinds of evidence all seem to point in a similar direction: dark matter exists.

[1]: https://pirsa.org/26030070

stefangordon 5 hours ago|||
“constant missing in our math” is roughly how inventing new particles in physics works.

When your equations are missing a number to work, you announce a new particle.

BigTTYGothGF 5 hours ago|||
400 years ago you'd be saying the same thing about heliocentrism.
antonvs 4 hours ago||
> I just can't believe something like dark matter exists.

That's a lot like a blind person saying they can't believe light exists.

It takes only a small amount of knowledge of physics to understand why and how dark matter might be possible, even likely. So small, in fact, that I can describe it in this comment.

The tl;dr is that all the senses you experience - sight, touch, smell, taste, and hearing - depend on the electromagnetic (EM) interaction. Touch, smell, taste, and hearing all depend on how electrons interact, and sight depends on how photons interact with electrons. But EM is only one of four fundamental interactions that we know of. We humans are essentially blind to all the others, without using devices to detect their presence.

But using devices we've invented, we can detect all sorts of things that we can't detect directly with our senses. X-rays and gamma rays, for example. But those are still just high-energy photons, not a different kind of particle altogether. They just help illustrate how limited our senses are.

A better example is the neutrino. They're pretty close to being "dark matter," because they don't interact via electromagnetism. As a result, they can pass right through your body, because there's nothing much to stop them. You're just as invisible to a neutrino as a neutrino is to you. It's estimated that about 100 trillion neutrinos pass through your body each second.

But neutrinos aren't perfectly "dark" - although they don't interact with electromagnetism, they do interact via the weak nuclear interaction, which is mostly something that happens inside the nuclei of atoms. (They also interact via gravity, but they have very small mass, so that doesn't help us detect them.)

We can detect neutrinos by building huge tanks full of very pure substances like water or argon, and burying them deep underground, to shield them from other interference. We can then look for the tell-tale signs that occur when a neutrino just happens to have a direct hit on an atomic nucleus, something that doesn't happen very often because nuclei are very small. That's why we need large tanks - to increase the odds of a hit.

The IceCube neutrino detector in Antarctica (https://icecube.wisc.edu/science/icecube/) extends to 2.5 km underground, and Super-Kamiokande in Japan (https://www-sk.icrr.u-tokyo.ac.jp/en/sk/) is buried 1 km below a mountain. They're able to detect neutrinos with high confidence, because aside from the tell-tale sing we can often even relate the neutrinos they detect to astronomical sources such as supernovae and supermassive black holes.

Neutrinos show that it's possible to have matter that doesn't interact via electromagnetism, which is all but invisible to us. And not just invisible - it can pass right through us. In the case of neutrinos, we're just "lucky" that they participate in the weak nuclear interaction, so we can detect them if we try hard enough. But what if a particle didn't do that? Then you'd have real dark matter - particles that we can't detect at all, except via the energy they carry, which participates in the gravitational interaction. But it's very difficult to detect tiny particles using gravity - which is why the first place we think we've detected dark matter is at large scales, in the motion of galaxies, where the collective mass of dark matter is large enough to be detected.

With all this in mind, a question dark matter skeptics would need to answer is, why wouldn't we expect dark matter to exist? We've identified quite a large zoo of particles, and what distinguishes each of them is that they each participate differently in the different interactions that we know about. Here's a summary of the fundamental particles and their participation in the fundamental interactions - which are gravity, electromagnetism (EM), weak nuclear, and strong nuclear (the latter two are different types of interactions that happen to have very generic names):

Electron: gravity, EM, weak

Neutrino: gravity, weak

Photon: gravity, EM

Quark: gravity, EM, weak, strong

Gluon: gravity, strong

Dark matter: gravity, ?

There's no physical reason we wouldn't expect a particle like dark matter to exist. It doesn't even have to have no interaction other than gravity - it could just have a very small degree of interaction that we can't easily detect, which is what the OP experiment is counting on.

If you accept the existence of X-rays and neutrinos, then it's not very consistent to draw the line at dark matter, once you have some understanding of the physics involved.