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Posted by gmays 1 day ago

Go grandmaster Shin defeats AI KataGo with a two-stone handicap(www.kedglobal.com)
236 points | 67 commentspage 2
dombiscoff 16 hours ago|
What I found interesting was that he adapted and shifted to a very unconventional strategy of play, opposed to the AI who primarily seems to play high probability moves. Does this not demonstrate the human edge against AI in novel / unconventional thinking?
fn-mote 4 hours ago|
> a very unconventional strategy

Correction: a very conservative strategy, so as not to lose the advantage he started with.

thataccount 5 hours ago||
I don't know what the fascination with these AI versus human tournaments is. I'm old enough to remember the whole "Deep Blue" vs Kasparov exhibition, and I didn't really understand the fascination with all that either. That humans can make sufficiently strong calculators has never been a dispute in my mind. If the human wins over the calculator, good, but if the calculator wins, okay. What does that tell us exactly? The human had a bad day? The machine had a good one?
kadoban 2 hours ago|
> That humans can make sufficiently strong calculators has never been a dispute in my mind.

Within our lifetimes (unless you're quite young) it was doubtful if a go ai would ever beat a decent human. Same was true for chess a generation or two earlier. It's news because it's the handoff of man to machine being the best at a particular thing.

This current news is news from the other way, this human did _exceptionally_ well.

ggm 7 hours ago||
I recommend "The Master of Go" by Kawabata, 1951. It's a beautiful story of the change of power at the apex of the Go ranking system. I read it the same year as I read "The Glass Bead Game" by Hesse published in 1943 and its hard not to believe a relationship but in truth I think they are completely independent stories of the same situational tension.
bluecalm 9 hours ago||
KataGo isn't very good at exploiting weaker opponents. In chess people were convinced a grandmaster can never be beaten with a knight odds. It's just too easy to simplify the position and win. It was very easy (for a grandmaster) vs already super human Stockfish. It was still kinda easy (for a strong GM) vs 200+ ELO stronger NNUE Stockfish. And then someone made a net optimized for exploiting humans. Its games are amazing and it beats GMs with knight odds with ease. It's unreal how good it is at setting traps, playing lines that don't work in theory but the refutation is based on precise tactical sequence a few moves deep. Playing vs it feels like playing vs a spider that slowly weaves a net around you till you can't move anymore.

I predict the same thing is going to happen in Go once the engines catch up.

(You can play those chess bots on Lichess for free. Challenge LeelaQueenOdds or LeelaRookOdds if you are master level or stronger)

logicallee 8 hours ago|
can the grandmasters still win with rook odds?
joelthelion 8 hours ago||
Is there an equivalent of LeelaKnightOdds for Go? That might be harder to tackle.
bamboozled 7 hours ago||
Neo...
ernsheong 4 hours ago||
Okay, now remove the 2-stone handicap
adamrezich 9 hours ago||
For all four of you that are like me and understand Dota 2 a lot better than Go, and are wondering what impact a “two-stone handicap” has and what it means, ChatGPT Pro claims that to analogize this scenario to a professional team playing against OpenAI Five:

> The professional human team begins from a legal eight-to-ten-minute game state in which it has decisively won the laning stage: roughly a 6,000–8,000 team-net-worth lead, a 4,000–6,000 team-XP lead, two enemy Tier 1 towers destroyed, the third badly damaged, and all three friendly Tier 1 towers standing.

avadodin 6 hours ago||
I don't get it, can you explain in StarCraft II?
retr0rocket 6 hours ago||
[dead]
hirshi 1 day ago||
I'm struggling to believe it's not good enough to beat a mere mortal.
noknownsender 15 hours ago||
This was with a two-stone advantage for the strongest-ever human player, apparently.
gear54rus 6 hours ago||
Thinking machines were finally defeated and will now be prohibited.
lunchbucket 9 hours ago|
We're so back