Top
Best
New

Posted by sylvainkalache 2 hours ago

AI handles incidents, engineers lose touch with their systems(www.sylvainkalache.com)
135 points | 106 comments
bob1029 2 hours ago|
A natural evolution of engineers losing touch with the customers and users.

I'm noticing some of the concern play out regarding AI weakening the capabilities of software people.

I gave the team an exact solution on a silver platter and they still failed to identify how to go about it after 3 days slamming it into Claude. The resolution is literally 1 line of code that could be arrived at in about 30 minutes of patient, old school troubleshooting.

I think what's happening is the AI system draws poorly aligned and led engineers into this ego inflation feedback loop where they are completely detached from reality because these tools can simulate a better one.

konschubert 52 minutes ago||
It's the uncanny valley of AI. It's still not quite good enough that you can trust it blindly on a big codebase, so you still have to read and understand everything - which is often harder than just writing it up yourself.
noir_lord 4 minutes ago||
Pretty much, The one thing I use it for is as a sanity check, pretty much "Look at <SomeFile>, point out issues you see, summarise them tersely" and it'll spot stuff a code review by a human might have spotted (in the mythical land where people actually do code reviews properly and don't just flag a spelling mistake to "show they looked at it").

Beyond that I don't trust it at all and I still write all my code the meat sack way.

Trust is earned not given and it hasn't earned it yet.

themgt 32 minutes ago|||
I gave the team an exact solution on a silver platter and they still failed to identify how to go about it

I think what's happening is ... poorly aligned and led engineers [in] this ego inflation feedback loop where they are completely detached from reality

A story about a team of humans with some very human problems.

Root_Denied 1 hour ago|||
I'm seeing this happen in the security space right now. Someone on my team I was helping train and bring along is all of sudden regressing in their understanding of the issues we're working on, and instead focusing on AI tool outputs to do their job for them.
mawadev 1 hour ago|||
I can share a weird story:

Usually, I take my time to understand each keyword of the code I'm looking at, especially if it is new to me, like terraform.

I work in a team/with one architect, who only did the DevOps/Infra stuff for the past years and I had the expectation he knows what he is doing and talking about.

At around 2 weeks, I noticed how his knowledge has severe gaps and how he takes things at face value or uses terminology interchangably, which confuses me. It sounds plausible, but it does not actually translate into a working system or shared understanding.

Then one day I did some pair programming with him and whenever there was an error or a resource missing, he would type it into the LLM, copy paste it out of it and then brute force error messages. He did not even wait a second to think or reconcile whats happening on the screen or what the exact requirement is. Never taking one step back and questioning any assumption.

Now that the timeline is shifting and everyone starts to be stressed, he continues to vibe code through me and it is so tiring, there is no higher level planning or architecture, its just a reactive type of trial and error to be faster. It feels like these people are so used to talking to bots, that they treat you like an agent they can chat to or talk through monologs with.

It is quite shocking how people went from being humble (learn the basics or close the gaps in understanding) to full on authority on everything and berating people 24/7...

So right now I'm considering quitting IT for a couple of years until people calm down, but I think its pretty futile

2wrist 1 hour ago|||
Great comment.

At my place, this is what they want. They want people to smash through things as fast as possible. They don’t want people to sit and craft a solution which takes in to account the whole. They are choosing tools which are low code, and use llm’s to produce what they need. as they say “this is the way things are going”.

wccrawford 58 minutes ago||||
I don't think it's generalizable. The kind of person who copy and pastes from the AI is the kind who did the same from StackOverflow before. It's more compelling, and we probably see more of them because of it, but it's the same general thing.

The kind of person who insists on understanding things and working through the problem has always been rarer. It's not "humble", it's "inquisitive" and "persistent".

danielheath 50 minutes ago||
I'm seeing people who _used to be_ like that losing that understanding without realizing it's happening - they have a superficial idea of what the code is doing, enough to feel like they understand it, but the change is apparent when watching them handle something unexpected.
Tade0 2 minutes ago||
LLMs reduced interest on tech debt, but it's still there and people who have a tendency to acquire it will go bankrupt eventually.
DiggyJohnson 1 hour ago||||
You captured this phenomenon very well in this comment. Appreciate you sharing it because it’s hard to describe exactly what makes this sort of behavior so bizarre.
MichaelRo 50 minutes ago|||
>> he continues to vibe code through me

So quit pair programming. I never did, never will do that, nor worked at a place that remotely encouraged that. Each to their own, that's how it should be.

gregglain 10 minutes ago||||
I saw this the past year - new employees would put problems into Claude first instead of debugging. A year back I was debug manually first, now I do the same.

The speed AI debugs at is incredible and yes, we lose touch the more we use it like any manager feet up barking orders to their underlings to get things done.

mitxela 37 minutes ago||||
In my mind, this, not copyright or water use, is the best reason to boycott AI. It'll make you incompetent.
coffeebeqn 1 hour ago|||
At least at my company the OKRs are quite clear and demand heavy AI utilization above all else
pratyushnair01 10 minutes ago|||
I've felt that AI can figure out and fix 90% issues, but it rarely does minimal, non invasive fixes. That still requires manual effort. But going from a broad to minimal fix is still a different skillset from actual debugging, so in the the end it does lead to skill atrophy.
edg5000 1 hour ago|||
I it usually doesn't get me in this weird state of mind, but I once spent 6 months (all-in) building a thing that I, once finished, just left alone completely (on disk gathering dust). Weird experience. So I'd say AI physchosis is real.
ffsm8 39 minutes ago|||
Sincerely , I think you're blaming the AI incorrectly there. You just got incompetents on your payroll.
wegwerf17377382 34 minutes ago|||
So how do you build competence in a world where AI is preached to be the most reasonable way to solve problems because it's supposed to be faster than humans?
mitxela 36 minutes ago|||
incompetent people, surely?
ulrikrasmussen 1 hour ago|||
I think LLMs have some of the same risks and benefits of stimulant drugs. They can make you more productive if used effectively as a tool, but they can also delude you into thinking you are better than you are and create a dependence such that you aren't just less productive without the LLM/drug, you fail to be productive at all because you don't know how to function without it.
setopt 1 hour ago||
That sounds somewhat applicable to many tools. Like Vim/Emacs, for example. Or computers and smart phones in general.
PunchyHamster 1 hour ago|||
I don't think it's engineers, it's the rest of the org insulating the tech workers from every side of the business
bob1029 1 hour ago||
I think there are many cases where it was the tech workers themselves who argued for isolation from the customer so that they may focus harder on whatever tasks. I used to be one of these workers. I argued very hard for it. I regret that today.

On the surface it seems rational, but it quickly turns into a system of perverse incentives because now the development team must maintain an illusion that they are constantly overwhelmed with tasks and could never hope to spare a microsecond to assist the customer. This misalignment is how you wind up building your own web frameworks and databases from scratch. It turns into a self serving monster that eventually dominates the entire business. From the perspective of the business, many of these development teams look like they're behind some modern day iron curtain.

throw839948499 1 hour ago||
If the solution is so simple, why claude did not found it? At this point we can assume, it is better than 90% of engineers (including me).

After three decades of outsourcing to lowest bidder, I do not buy that humans are somehow better!

> patient, old school troubleshooting

I usually see similar arguments around systems with major red flags (no docs, poor CI, decade ago no CVS...). And engineers with private stash of workarounds for job security!

Claude does not do anything special.

Or perhaps claude was misconfigured, it had no access to relevant part of system, and it tryied to work within its limitation. Often it means decompiling binaries in desperate loop...

shakna 1 hour ago|||
Claude regular spits out six helper functions instead of... A twenty line for loop. It overengineers most things.

Overabstracting, deduplicating things that don't need to be. Building metaclasses because it saw a single orchestrator in the whole codebase.

If it is a better engineer than you... You need practice.

adjejmxbdjdn 1 hour ago|||
The funny thing is that if you never understand the codebase then you will keep thinking Claude is doing a great work delivering all this incredible software, when all it has done is created unnecessary tech debt.
jjav 51 minutes ago||||
> A twenty line for loop. It overengineers most things.

Anecdote I like to tell.. I was working on a financial planning software, intentionally purely vibe coded as an experiment.

I eventually discovered AI had implemented seven duplicate copies of tax calculation functions. All of them different. All of them wrong. All of them giving different answers for same input.

Not even the most junior of newbie junior engineers would do something this crazy. But AI was happy to do it. It will solve the immediate problem, efficiently. Even if the most efficient solution is something ridiculous like this.

ilija139 17 minutes ago|||
I have also a weird story to tell that a human did and it is as crazy as this. It happen in 2019 so no LLMs at all.

A person that was hired as an expert in our startup spent more than one week full time working on implementing his solution to the problem we were having. I checked the code after one week to see the progress and was curious how they are implementing an already crazy sounding idea. I found that the whole week was spent re-implementing in python, python's built-in "float" function. That was it, the whole code was just that.

Our problem was related to financial services and their implementation of "float" was not even correct.

gnz11 13 minutes ago||||
Which model though? I have similar anecdotes but all with older models. The jump in capabilities in the last 6 months has been substantial.
shakna 1 minute ago||
[delayed]
UpsideDownRide 19 minutes ago|||
For some definitions of efficiency.
Foobar8568 48 minutes ago||||
Oh and how is it any different than most software engineers?

How many times I heard ORM are bad only to recreate the same shit?

How many times I heard ORM had bad performance and see 1+n stuff everywhere?

How many times I have seen tight coupling in the name of DRY?

shakna 16 minutes ago||
Its different, in that when you teach that engineer, they either leave because now they hate you, or they grow. They change to meet the standards of a project, rather than inventing their own.

We don't get seniors, without juniors. I'd say more than half the job, is just... Learning. People grow.

throw839948499 1 hour ago||||
I am former java enterprise dev, so yes I often code this way. Unit testing, decomposition... Some projects CI refuse to merge commits with 20 line loop and duplicated code...

But that is not a point. Claude can code tight compact loops, it just needs to be instructed to do so! If it does "enterprise code", it means it had no instructions about code style.

If your documentation, spec, agent.md does not have proper guidance on coding style... yet another red flag!

shakna 18 minutes ago||
> it just needs to be instructed to do so!

Considering how often it overrules, its own rules?

raverbashing 38 minutes ago|||
100%

It is my pet peeve with Claude and why I don't prefer it for most stuff

(also the comment spam - but that's a all of them in a way or another)

Sharlin 1 hour ago||||
So after 30 years of outsourcing to the bottom 10%, you think Claude is better than the bottom 90% even though it’s so stupid that it doesn’t even know it should ask for advice or more information when it’s stuck?
throw839948499 1 hour ago||
It just follows instructions you give it.

Some asian devs will go for weeks without asking for help, all while giving amazing fake status reports. Loosing face etc...

Sharlin 49 minutes ago|||
Do you think those devs are in the top 10% of all devs like you said Claude is? Or is the bar suddenly much lower after all?
tannertech 54 minutes ago|||
You're comparing scammers to incompetence
alex_smart 1 hour ago||||
Because simplicity is hard and often the result of careful thought. Anybody can keep piling pile of shit on top of pile of shit which is why that sort of code is so common in our industry.
SyneRyder 1 hour ago||||
While I actually agree with you (though, outsourcing to lowest bidder would account for much of what you're seeing with humans), I just saw Bug Hunt Bench scores that gave me some pause:

https://x.com/PawelHuryn/status/2095982259761475945

https://bughunt.productcompass.pm/?preset=all

Claude Opus 4.8 ranks near last on this Bug Hunt benchmark, and missed 96% of the deliberately introduced bugs. If you're a developer who has been falling back to Opus 4.8 because of how Opus 5 talks, and Fable 5 being so expensive that it needs to be rationed... well, turns out Opus 4.8 can actually be quite poor for finding bugs.

(Which feels weird to me, because Opus 4.6 fixed a bug that myself and a group of humans had been hunting down for over a decade. Models are spiky.)

Also surprising to me: Luna Max performing better than Fable 5.1 High, at least on this benchmark. But Astra 6 & Fable 5.1 on Max both perform at the top as you would expect.

throw839948499 1 hour ago||
Still, basic debuging and trouble shooting is where LLM generally shine. Any model can bisect git history and isolate newly introduced bug.

If model can not automatically reproduce bug, while human manually can... you got a problem in CI.

> Luna Max performing better than Fable 5.1 High

Perhaps you are reading too many benchmarks.

Edit for answer :

I agree Luna is great cheap model.

But if Fable was hitting security limits, yet was still included in benchmarks...

What flies better? Elephant or paper plane. You can make objective benchmark about that. But not much value for logistics company

SyneRyder 22 minutes ago||
> Perhaps you are reading too many benchmarks.

Maybe, but at least the benchmark provides an objective measurement of the codebase it is tested on. You're also assuming the bugs are newly introduced / regressions.

I can give a concrete example - Fable will not interact with bugs that result in writing to null pointers in C code. That triggers the guardrails and ends the session. If Luna (or GLM Flash, etc) will fix those kinds of memory bugs, that immediately puts it ahead of Fable in some ways, no matter how tiny Luna is. Again, models are spiky.

I still agree with your initial point! It's LLMs all the way down over here. It would need to be a particularly gnarly bug & an exceptionally talented human for me to want to pay another human to work on fixing it now.

gspr 1 hour ago||||
> At this point we can assume, it is better than 90% of engineers (including me).

Hard disagree. We absolutely cannot assume that. You can posit it, and we can have an informed debate about it. This is what irks me the most about LLM fans: they constantly try to reframe the debate to have their worldview as the agreed-upon starting point.

bob1029 1 hour ago|||
That final 10% is the hard part. 90% is easy.
solatic 2 minutes ago||
Author has a good head on their shoulders, but few if any companies are going to spend time on incident simulations for their SREs.

Why not? Because even pre-AI, very few companies spend time practicing restoring their backups, or disaster recovery, or picking infrequently-used runbooks to practice, or seeing whether they can easily rotate secrets without downtime, or trying to redploy the system onto another vendor's cloud/platform, or, or, or... It is the least-sexy operations work that exists. No executive cares about this. Ops organizations push for flashy work, same as everybody else: new infrastructure for new projects, cool chatbots, new flashy dashboards, make charts go up and to the right, etc.

Airline pilots go through diaster simulation training because the government mandates that training. If it wasn't a condition of holding a pilot's license, no company would pay for it.

Want SREs to spend time training for disasters? Take a step back. Support professional licensure. Make it a condition of holding a license. You won't get industry-wide professional behavior until you professionalize the work.

smugglerFlynn 11 minutes ago||
I see aviation sentiment raised from time to time. In aviation failure is catastrophic, and systems you operate do not change on the fly (pun intended).

You can probably drill SREs that way but you are only teaching them how to _react_ efficiently, not how to _fix_ unique unicorn root causes of these failures. Aviation analogy would be an airplane engineer that tries to drill himself for in-flight engine failures AND engine debugging / engine redesign both at the same time.

It never made sense in software engineering, and never will. Minute spent on drills is a minute better spent on reworking codebase to reduce changes of future incidents. This post is very SRE centric.

krtkush 1 hour ago||
I find the use of AI like quicksand.

The more I use it, the more I have to rely on it to make changes/ fix things in the same system. In the end, I come out feeling empty; no intuitive knowledge of the system "I" built or fixed.

Code review is important but it does not replace the mental model I am able to build when I do all the steps of software development manually without AI.

Muromec 32 minutes ago||
No worries, at some point your hit the wall with it and the reality will force you to look at the code. It won't be nice, but until that point delulu land is sustainable enough to fall forward
konschubert 55 minutes ago|||
It's the uncanny valley of AI. It's still not quite good enough that you can trust it blindly on a big codebase, so you still have to read and understand everything - which is often harder than just writing it up yourself.
gmueckl 22 minutes ago|||
I find that it helps a little to maintain an iron grip on the design. Take the time for really detailed change planning. Be pedantic and push back against every little thing that seems wrong or even a little odd in any plan document the LLM spews out. Likewise, watch for the for the moment when the LLM eventually stumbles and starts to make excuses for deviations from the plan. Interrupt immediately and force it back onto the plan (or your vision), potentially with pointers to resolve immediate problems. Completely unattended agents just don't work for important code.
vividfrier 32 minutes ago||
[dead]
jtfrench 2 hours ago||
The more code writes autonomously, the less intuition the human owners have about that code. Loss of intuition is a seed of technical debt that grows with time. Over a long enough horizon, it can make looking at your own codebase feel like the first day on the job (sometimes at a company you started).

Luckily, there are ways to mitigate this and essentially translate those human intuition of how the codebase “should” be into guardrails for the agents. But without that, your setting your sails in a stochastic sea where each wave looks nothing like the last.

yard2010 1 hour ago|
I've been thinking about this lately - is it like using 3rd party libs to achieve stuff faster? As much as I would lovr to hand craft the datetime logic in my app, I might as well use luxon and invest this time somewhere else. Only now with llms, you get virtually infinite 3rd party libs you can use, you create them on the fly. So if you have strong engineering values, I would say simply it boils down to "contracts over programs", you can still be in touch with the logic that glues it all together and treat some logic as a blackbox the same way we do with 3rd party libs?
Muromec 29 minutes ago||
It's not because with libraries you have a boundary somewhere and can decide to not care what's inside as long as the interface is stable and well designed. The problem of course you need to prioritise building well designed interfaces and decouple components from each other, and that's a skill most developers aren't good at.
masfuerte 12 minutes ago||
This has already happened in other areas. I'm old enough to remember when customer service people spent all day handling customer problems themselves, which gave them the understanding needed to solve more unusual problems.

These days they do what the computer tells them. Even if they could solve the problem they don't have the agency. They can only select from the options they are given.

In software we still have the agency but we are giving away the understanding. The agency will follow.

ChiMan 1 hour ago||
This is why the paradigm for AI use should not be automation but rather the cyborg. Under automation, people are less active and engaged and become mere operators of automated processes. They become slaves of the machines. Under the cyborg model, they arrange the machines in a way to make people masters of a universe that includes the machines helping them be that.
touisteur 1 hour ago|
For more in this vein, look up "Automation should be like Iron Man, not like Ultron". Sad to see so many people let go of their agency.
bbmatryoshka 38 minutes ago||
without Iron Man's plot armor, Ultron would have won
iforgotmypasswo 17 minutes ago||
I feel a lot of comments here are missing the forest for the trees.

We do not yet have the next generation systems that will manage AI creation and maintenance of systems.

Humans have been making spaghetti code systems and maintaining them poorly for years. Best practices developed… eventually. But certainly not in the 70s and 80s. Spaghetti was the norm for quite some time.

The development paradigm has changed. Forever. You can’t expect yesterday’s tools for managing software development to succeed at this point. We’re still roughly on year one of this transformation.

The new bottlenecks are creating and enforcing boundaries in the code, identifying level of risk within a boundary, subjecting high risk areas to more intense human review and architecture reworks, and so so much more manual testing.

We need a new language for high level development that focuses on architectural constraints. We need analysis software that helps draw boundaries, identify what needs extended human attention, and helps us map and understand a rapidly developing code base. We need to standardize on the use of frameworks and languages like we have on assembly variants.

I’ll bring up a hacker news trope here. NaughtyDog’s GOAL was an amazing system that was a product of an underdeveloped ecosystem for game development at the time. They used lisp and assembly because you still had to write assembly for performance reasons then.

We are in a very similar period. The ecosystem is underdeveloped. We should be looking for new languages and tools to manage this.

CNC machines used to run from punch cards and then hand written NC code. Now we have advanced CAM software. (Which innovative people are actually running with LLMs!)

gnfargbl 11 minutes ago||
This article is all hypothesis and no evidence.

Yes, it's clear that if AI agents handle routine issues then only the most complex issues will be handled by humans. In no way does it follow that humans will be less prepared to handle those incidents than they are now; by definition, this class of problems have no rote solutions. Each issue of this type already requires deep system knowledge to remediate, and still will.

What we are seeing here is an instance of the more general trend where experts are still required to operate complex systems, but AI is destroying the career path that creates those experts. That's what we should be worrying about, not that people are going to be spending less time rebooting boxes. This isn't something you can fix with a "simulator."

intended 4 minutes ago|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000510...

The article is based on evidence, and states it clearly in the body.

nevertoolate 21 minutes ago|
I’m not sure who will be solving these incidents if 99% of incidents will be “solved” by LLMs. If I’m called once a year my daily rate will be my yearly rate?
More comments...