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Posted by jmpman 1 day ago

Ask HN: Fable hacked my piano, can I release the results?

I have a self playing piano, using a system called PianoDisc Protigy. They have an online store which sells music for their system, from various modern artists along with classics such as Bach and Beethoven. Last night I saw they had released some music from Eric Satre, a 19th century French composer, which I bought. Curious if I could have just used AI to create these files, I began experimenting with Astra and Fable. Feeding the output of one into the other to critique. After an hour of LLM discussion of Rubato and fermata, solenoid response times and proper sustain pedal technique, they settled on their ultimate version of Gymnopedie No 1.

I then asked Fable to compare it to the open source version I'd downloaded from Mutopia, which it promptly ripped apart. No sustain, zero rubato, upside down balance.

Ok, what about the version I'd just bought?

The PianoDisc versions are mp3s encoded with the right channel carrying MIDI to be played on the piano, and the left channel containing any accompanying music to be played through attached speakers (who doesn't want the harmonica on Piano Man?)

I gave the mp3 to Fable, which promptly decoded the format, identifying the right channel carrying MIDI using a 2004.5 Hz square wave.

It then went on to analyze the nuance of pedal lift and melody relative to the chords.

Fable then asked if I wanted it to build an encoder to write my own MIDI files into the right channel of mp3s.

Sounds great, and I instructed it to write the encoder.

What it came back with was a python encoder PLUS a decoder.

In the verbose explanation, it mentioned decoy notes.

Curious, I asked it to explain the decoy notes.

Apparently PianoDisc adds obfuscation into their format which is handled properly by their decoder, but would leave naively extracted MIDI unplayable on other systems.

Fable created an encoder which adds those decoy notes, and a decoder which removes them.

Am I allowed to publish the decoder? The encoder?

172 points | 107 commentspage 4
natch 7 hours ago|
You bought a hardware device and you own that device?

This decoy notes scheme seems pretty unethical.

Gigachad 7 hours ago|
I wouldn't take claude research at face value. It found something odd, came up with a plausible sounding explanation and confidently presented it to OP. Doesn't mean it is true.
RobotToaster 4 hours ago||
Have fable "accidentally" escape containment and publish it.
kriro 6 hours ago||
Maybe send this question to the Anthropic legal team. I'd be curious if you get an answer and what it'll be.
ryandrake 7 hours ago||
Find someone in Europe or Australia, or some other place with non-insane digital laws, and have that person publish it as the “developer.”
eru 5 hours ago|
Might as well publish anonymously in that case..
philosopherNoob 7 hours ago||
If I ever owned a self-playing piano, figuring out how I could play custom songs of my own creation would be my top priority. It’s awesome you’ve found some success. Jmpman, what your post is missing is motivation. Why are you doing this and what is your goal?

If you sell your decoder or encoder the company will, eventually, kick your butt. Getting money involved raises the stakes.

If you distribute a file that is sold by the company, even if it was transformed by a decoder, the company will, eventually, kick your butt. (A recording or sample of how it sounds post-transformation for demonstration purposes would be reasonable.)

If your software requires files that must be paid for in order to function, then it’s critical that you do not bundle those files with your decoder or encoder. That would be piracy.

How your software was made matters. Did you have access to non-public information about anything involved? It seems like the answer is no, so you might be fine. It sounds like you legally obtained a copy of the file, hardware that runs it, and figured out how they work.

What terms of service did you agree to? While not everything listed may hold up in court (which gets determined BY a court IN a court so don’t think that’s an easy win), the company is surely within their rights to ban you from their online service.

If you want some relevant legal advice, check out the GameCube Dolphin emulator and how the team stays legal. I love learning about how stuff works, so I’ve followed lots of console jailbreaking and reverse engineering news for years. There is a way to do this stuff legally. HN is focused more on finance than hacking. So talk to some hackers (who aren’t trying to break the law).

I saw you ask about contacting the company. If this was a blog, I’d love a followup about what they say and do, but alas I’ll probably never see it. (I guess the worst outcome is that they spend more money on making their proprietary stuff more locked down?) Regardless of what they say, their word is not the law. Know the law, know your rights, and know when it’s safe to stick your neck out and when it’s not. I am obviously not a lawyer.

Oh, and which US state you are in and what they are based in will be relevant.

nmeofthestate 4 hours ago||
You should just ask AI, since you used AI to make the encoder and write your HN post.
dbgrman 5 hours ago||
Another option that works quite well is called FAFO. So, I'd say just publish it, and we'll see. Keep us posted!
toilet 4 hours ago||
Erik Satie
xyst 3 hours ago|
yea - just publish it
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