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Posted by chmaynard 13 hours ago

The revolt of the reader(bcantrill.dtrace.org)
357 points | 148 commentspage 2
westcoast49 3 hours ago|
> we readers shouldn’t be expected to labor to understand a sentence that the writer themselves didn’t work to create.

What about answers that an LLM gave to a question that we ourselves asked? Should we “labor” to understand that answer?

I think the argument, as presented in this and other similar pieces of critique, is too simplistic.

I do understand the criticism, but I think it should be framed in a different manner. The problem, when we read a long form piece by an author, is that we imagine that there’s another “mind” at the other side. We imagine that we are following the reasoning within the mind of a fellow human being, the writer. There’s an implied sort of “intimacy” to it. And the breach is when we are fooled into thinking that we are engaged in human communication, only to discover that there is a machine on the other side.

When we ask questions to an AI, this problem does not exist, because we are fully aware that the entity on the other side is not a human being.

Yet there is no doubt that the reply from an AI can contain information that is very much worthy of our time, and of our “labor” and effort to understand it.

So I think this ultimately will be about disclosure. As long as we are being made aware of the percentage of AI use in a text, explicitly or implicitly, I think we will actually grow to accept it.

ares623 2 hours ago|
[flagged]
markus_zhang 7 hours ago||
For me, writing is an activity of expressing my feelings and conveying my thoughts. I rarely left that to LLM simply because one does not contract out activities one cherishes.

I (am kinda forced to) use LLM to generate maybe 40% of the code at work, that is after my review and modifications. But I pretty much wrote all of the comments by myself. I can get into the flow by writing comments.

nkurz 7 hours ago||
Hi Bryan,

I liked your piece, and agree with almost all of it, but I'm surprised by your faith in the accuracy of Pangram at detecting AI writing. Is your faith based on testing it with lots of writing of known origins, or are you just saying that it reaches the same conclusion that you do as a talented human?

In particular, I wondered if you have tried running all of your own writings through it to verify that it thinks you are human. I was struck by Freddie deBoer's recent piece where he did this and said it often failed: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-wouldnt-say-pangram-i...

What percentage of false positive rejections would you find acceptable? Would you accept this even if it forced you to change the way you write?

ahepp 22 minutes ago||
>I wondered if you have tried running all of your own writings through it to verify that it thinks you are human. I was struck by Freddie deBoer's recent piece where he did this

Maybe I'm taking the "all" too literally here, but I read the article, and I'm not seeing anywhere the author ran a substantial portion of his corpus through Pangram to determine the false positive rate. That would be really interesting to see.

He does

* give an example of a piece of his writing that was, when ran in segments, flagged as generated (which he disputes)

* multiply the size of his corpus by pangram's published false positive rate and estimate that a few of his pieces would be flagged

* get the pangram model to label a piece "100% AI" when it only has 3 generated sentences

* demonstrate the ability to intentionally trigger a false positive

bcantrill 7 hours ago||
My experience is using Pangram quite often with lots of writing of all flavors (including a bunch of known origin).

As for my own writing, I didn't do this experiment, but one of my co-workers did -- and over 176 posts spanning 22 years, all 176 (well, 177 now with my latest) are 100% human. This is not hugely surprising in that (in addition to me having actually written them!) my voice is very... distinctive. What would be more entertaining would be to try to get an LLM to write like me and fool Pangram that way. I still think that this would be difficult based on the experiences that I've heard, but it wouldn't surprise me if you could pull it off (and I would assuredly find the result entertaining!).

In the dimensions that we use Pangram in the most actionable sense (namely, to audit our own public writing), I am unconcerned about false positives, and leave it to Oxide authors to rework/recast as needed. (Though it sounds like Freddie didn't even need to do that -- he just needed to provide a longer sample.)

Barbing 5 hours ago||
Now that you’ve seen it can be brittle (e.g. if a small sample is provided, per this single case), would it be sensible to add a disclaimer to the post? It’s a great ad for the tool (& I’d love for a perfect tool to exist!), so it’ll sell subscriptions & we wanna make sure that some teacher out there doesn’t falsely accuse a kid, or engineer doesn’t think worse of their colleague unfairly, etc.

False negatives are mentioned, but the false positive is what could hurt people.

To human writing. Thank you!

osr00 1 hour ago||
"you probably shouldn’t let it write it for you if you actually expect the rest of us to read it." definitely resonates with me.

Where I kind of disagree is that I don't think most readers will revolt. I think the mountain of LLM slop has actually changed people's behavior in more ways than one. Some are already relying on LLMs to summarize articles: then it doesn't matter to them who wrote it, they're just consuming machine-condensed content with no way to tell if a human or an LLM wrote the original piece. Or if their summarizer hallucinated.

iamflimflam1 4 hours ago||
I did some experiments with very simple AI detection. You can get a very long way with simple ngram probabilities.

https://meatbag.atomic14.com/

https://www.atomic14.com/2026/08/18/detecting-claude-with-le...

It’s very hard to make reliable though. Different models have different characteristics and you can prompt your way out of being detected.

hypfer 4 hours ago||
This is exactly how we should approach problems. Not through just throwing more resources at it (fighting GPU compute with GPU compute) but by being clever.

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Feeding it samples of a long-going conversation with Gemini 3.1 Pro is interesting. The first message seems to get flagged instantly, but later ones sometimes pass as human. Or at least more human-ish.

If I read the blogpost correctly, you've only "trained" on prompt<->response and not interactive sessions?

bcantrill 3 hours ago||
Interesting! Amusingly, if I feed that detector this blog post, it identifies it as confidently robot (97 out of 100 test passages). And running through my last five blog entries, they are all over the map, with three deemed at least "likely robot." Looking further back in time (and taking a somewhat random example), a blog entry from 2008, "Concurrency's Shysters"[0], is also deemed as similarly confidently robot (also 97 out of 100); do you expect this high a false positive rate?

[0] https://bcantrill.dtrace.org/2008/11/03/concurrencys-shyster...

iamflimflam1 3 hours ago||
It really depends - it’s trained on fairly limited data (things I could generate from Claude opus 5 and ChatGPT (pre-Astra).

It’s now quite hard to get non AI training data…

jan_m_savage 7 hours ago||
In a way, The ubiquity of AI-generated material will force the world to acknowledge the superiority of the human mind. Already on Youtube there are channels proudly claiming their music was not generated by AI. Will the software industry have similar disclaimers? (some already have).
siscia 3 hours ago||
It is not clear to me what the author is SPECIFICALLY against.

Only saying "LLM writing" is honestly lazy writing. Specifically what?

I get the glaring cases, I get the idea that if the prose is generated then maybe also the idea, I get the feeling when reading a complete LLM authored piece.

But that doesn't help the piece, because - beside those glaring cases - most writing today is a mix between authors ideas and LLM prose.

turtleyacht 11 hours ago||
A lot of similar pieces have not considered a post is both the first and final work of a thing: opinions, and experience, and less of much in cited facts; with AI, that there even was a revision pass at all.

I guess there is a kind of participatory element to the discourse where, if you want an audience, there is an editing process. Whereas in other cases, we wrote these as progress notes on an unknown journey, breadcrumbs or upturned stones to mark a path to the horizon.

Maybe it's the difference between writing as a mode of discovery, retreading the mental arc of a solution, and writing something honed to leave a mark.

smitty1e 10 hours ago|
You could use AI to come up with a draft, and to critique ahead of posting.

The chief grief appears to be phoning in the whole process.

watwut 2 hours ago||
If you need AI for the draft, then it does not need to be written at all. You dont have a thing to say, you just have requirement to produce a lot of words.

And in that case, no one needs to read it ai or not.

MarkusQ 10 hours ago||
"I have fantasized about sentencing the author to read them aloud, certain that they themselves will be unable to endure the slop that they are foisting upon the rest of us.)"

I wish that were true, but I fear it may not be.

https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/07/canadian-legislator-reads...

Young-Lord 5 hours ago|
Blocked EVERY single LLM generated blog and content farm with uBlacklist.

Another great day where Google only gives me 2 results on the first page.

ares623 4 hours ago|
Care to share the list? Or is uBlacklist the list?
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