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Posted by josephcsible 13 hours ago

Leaving VMware just got harder after Broadcom pulled VDDK downloads(www.virtualizationhowto.com)
198 points | 82 comments
soamv 9 hours ago|
As an old ex-vmware eng it's kinda sad reading all these articles about broadcom's controlled descent into terrain. A lot of really cool and useful engineering was done in vmware's heyday, and it was often delivered in rather shaky commercial shapes, but for a while the whole thing kinda worked. And broadcom seems to see it as a company that is long past its ability to innovate, extracting as many dollars as possible before its rapidly decreasing value goes to zero.

There was a solid few years that a lot of business types at vmware behaved as though winning was the default, assured state. It took several years for them to see that that was very much not the case. A real lesson in there, for every successful business today.

chipx86 5 hours ago||
Another ex-VMware here (9 years on the Workstation team). It's so very sad to see... I grew up there from a career standpoint and I was proud to be there, loved being there, and I just don't recognize it anymore.

I agree with your point about "winning was the default state." I joined during the Diane Greene era and left in the Pat Gelsinger era, spoke to all three CEOs at different points in one-on-ones, and learned a lot about how different people approach the challenges of running a company and listening to employees.

Pre-Broadcom, sort of toward the end of my time there, there was a lot of unintended self-sabotage that didn't need to happen. We lost people that we shouldn't and shot ourselves in the foot for some really dumb reasons, which just a bit more coordination could have prevented. There were some innovative ideas that got lost in all this, and I believe could have fueled VMware's product line and put it in the right positions for where the sector ultimately went. Alas.

SanjayMehta 8 hours ago||
You need to remember this isn't Broadcom the chip company at work, this is really Avago which took on the Broadcom name when they acquired the latter.

Avago's business model is to acquire cash cow businesses and then milk them dry. These VMware changes are consistent with that model.

m4rtink 36 minutes ago|||
Broadcom/Avago, please buy Atlassian! I beg you, pretty please!

You will make an insane amount of money and make the world a much better place!

throw0101a 8 hours ago|||
> […] this is really Avago which took on the Broadcom name when they acquired the latter.

For a visual representation of this see the "Edgar suit" from the movie Men in Black. :)

the_alchemist 7 hours ago||
And sugar is dollars :'D
jasonvorhe 43 minutes ago||
I have very little pity for any of these customers, excluding maybe small businesses that simply don't know any better and lack the expertise but at every company and client I've been at there were at least 1-2 people trying to convince higher ups to not needlessly build core infrastructure on proprietary components and yet most were and are still being ignored.

Sure, if you have legacy Windows-only software that is proven to not work in other environments, you're out of luck and your hands may be tied but all the VMWare shops I've liberated from this slow, ugly and terrible to automate mess had to pay dearly for that.

How many more rug pulls do these people need? Oh right, they're probably in the middle of some Azure migration anyways.

Some people just need to learn through pain.

vintagedave 1 minute ago|
It can take a lot of time to migrate. People who've known about Broadcom's behaviour for some time may still be working towards solving it.

Or, they may have been naive. Small companies especially tend to have people with a more, I don't know, 'social' set of business expectations? 'I wouldn't do it to others so surely they wouldn't do it to me / they'll reverse course when they see how bad it looks' sort of expectations. I don't feel pity for people like that: I think they may be taken advantage of, but I feel admiration because an expectation of good conduct is something everyone should have and retain, even if it is breached.

ramgine 10 hours ago||
I got my current job because I could lead the hyper-v to VMware migration project. Just this year I led the VMware to hyper-v migration project. VMware was such a great product (although a bit cumbersome in the VCF environment I managed). It’s really unfortunate it went the way of Broadcom. In comparison Hyper-v feels like a typical Microsoft product. A bunch of different tools created by different teams to do tasks that feel bolted on and afterthoughts. I have to run FCM to manage the nodes? But I run HVM to manage the roles? But there’s no overall resource management like VMware vsphere or proxmox does natively?

I’ve quietly built a proxmox cluster in our environment for semi-prod workloads for when the inevitable windows host has issues.

kev009 8 hours ago||
Corporate IT is kind of a parallel universe to me, so it is interesting to see how widely used these products are and how impactful these types of events are.

There are a few broad categories to building one of these platforms.. core virtualization ("relatively easy"), device model ("medium hard"), storage management ("hard"), management plane ("medium hard").

VMWare popularized x86 core virtualization and defined their own device model because they were the early market leader. But the device model is pretty bizarre and I haven't been particularly impressed by the guest driver quality over the years. VMFS and vSAN seem good for storage, the latter being better than anything open source. Management plane was mediocre, I remember it took a while to move off Flash and fat clients while cloud vendors were showing none of that was necessary from inception, and everything is kind of in a walled garden by design (embedded DB etc).

sigmoid10 10 hours ago|||
I actually had so many troubles with vmware on windows over the years that once I tried out hyper-v for the first time last year, I somehow have never touched vmware again. Sure vmware has better configs, cleaner interface and some very subtle design advantages. But damn, hyper-v just fucking works and it keeps working across updates. I have a VM that has been running for a year and it is still perfectly doing exactly what it should. I never experienced that with vmware.
simoncion 10 hours ago||
> I actually had so many troubles with vmware on windows...

I assume this means that you were using Vmware Workstation? The VDDK is for Vmware vSphere, which -IIRC- runs on Linux and coordinates computers running ESXi, which are where vSphere VMs actually run.

Not that many people are going to be using Vmware Workstation to run a large number of VMs.

protocolture 8 hours ago||
I remember reading some obscure customer doco that "The old fax server is running on the virtual host"

And I was like... what virtual host?

What I found was Server 2003 running on VMWare Workstation, running on a Windows 7 Dell PC sitting at the bottom of a rack.

A lot of people think VMWare Workstation is the pinnacle product of the company and I have NFI how this came to be.

whizzter 13 minutes ago||
I think you're conflating different requirements/usecases.

Sure, a type-1 hypervisor like vSphere is technically better since there's no host OS creating unmanageable contention and if you have guests with higher performance requirements then yeah it's settling for something half-assed.

But in reality, we have some similar shit to a "fax server" that has manually set up weird manufacturer printer settings (local admins tried to be automated/distributed) and old third-party software libraries that "infects" a system globally (2 versions of that library cannot co-exist on a computer).

If that piece of crap can be contained on a VM, as long as it's contained and keeps trucking after a restart/powercycle everyone is happy. What kind of VM container hosts it is really secondary.

(What the software in question is can probably be inferred from the comment, the software is liked by users at the client so it's not going away)

manjose2018 7 hours ago|||
Does your company have a ton of thick-client apps? I feel like so many workloads are on the web right now and thick clients are slowly becoming a thing of the past - but maybe in Enterprise there are still stubborn thick client Win32 apps that are mission critical.

If I were starting a company today I would make sure that the majority of my apps were web based. (CRM[netsuite or sf.com], O365/GoogleDocs, workday|gusto, etc.)

d3Xt3r 6 hours ago||
Most high-security environments (banks, govt agencies etc) have a large on-prem footprint. Then there's specialised industries like manufacturing, science and engineering who typically have a bunch of embedded systems, often running ancient versions of Windows or something that needs to talk to a local ancient server. And many old companies have tons of legacy apps which are a PITA to migrate to newer infrastructure. So yeah, plenty of folks out there using omprem gear, it's kinda the reason why Broadcom is able to what it's doing - lots of suckers out there who're married yo vmware and can't get a divorce.
tstrimple 9 hours ago|||
I've lead roughly $20M in cloud migration projects in the last two years away from vmware to cloud services as replacements. Just insane what MBAs are willing to do to a product to squeeze short term profits. Even more insane that this country largely sees these people as a benefit to society and not the vultures they are.
aleph_minus_one 8 hours ago|||
> Just insane what MBAs are willing to do to a product to squeeze short term profits. Even more insane that this country largely sees these people as a benefit to society and not the vultures they are.

I do understand the argument that it can be considered as a benefit for society if companies that have a very incompetent management that falls for this kind of trap of getting locked in by some vendor without having an emergency escape plan available get milked or even get bust. :-)

bornfreddy 4 hours ago||
Well, it's not actually a trap, since it's not the management who pays the price - it is investors, employees and the society at large that do, while the MBAs have already moved on to their next victim.

Problem with incentives, I would say.

xyzelement 6 hours ago||||
Engineer with an MBA here.

I don't think anyone finds this flavor of activity beneficial. What's beneficial is the underlying system that is sufficiently free and flexible that great things (like VMware to begin with) are possible. As much as we don't like "this" we don't want to put any bureaucrats in power to squash creativity and enterprise.

Much like freedom of speech means someone can speak abhorrently, freedom of enterprise means someone can do bad or dumb business things. But we enjoy the thing in totality.

throwup238 6 hours ago||
> As much as we don't like "this" we don't want to put any bureaucrats in power to squash creativity and enterprise.

That was literally Broadcom’s reason for existing before Avago even acquired them. It’s the other half of the Qualcomm/Broadcom telecom duopoly.

ramgine 7 hours ago||||
The magic that is opex compared to capex. I'm sure it makes sense to some bean counter somewhere in the company, but for us who manage the resources it's always a loss.
spockz 3 hours ago||
I think that it boils down to that opex is considered speedy, flexible and agile. Whereas capex reflects slow/glacial but also stable. This is also why lease exists, why we have freelance contracts vs employee contracts for indeterminate amounts of time.
broknbottle 9 hours ago||||
The cloud see them as a benefit, that’s for sure. They are frothing at the mouth for the customers to migrate their workloads.
BLKNSLVR 8 hours ago|||
When the country is run by vultures, they celebrate the discovery of new successful ways to vult.
Flere-Imsaho 3 hours ago||
> quietly built a proxmox cluster

Why is your place of work not moving wholesale to Proxmox? It's mad that HyperV is chosen as a solution in this day and age.

cloudie78 2 hours ago||
Legal/Compliance/Risk department along the lines of “ nobody ever got fired for buying ibm”
Jedd 11 hours ago||
From TFA

> VMware to Proxmox migrations are not affected ...

Amusingly - and acknowledging tiny scale and modest automation requirements of home lab compared to enterprise - as I started migrating to Proxmox a year or two ago, the process of shuffling VMs off my ESXi servers and onto Proxmox was surprisingly painless. Effectively mount the ESXi as storage systems, and then 'copy to here'.

IIRC the only small challenges were a conservative choice on target VM's CPU type (Proxmox seems to dislike defaulting to 'host' CPU) and the network / SCSI controller defaults. I assume designed to prioritise robustness over performance.

All automatable, I'm sure.

BLKNSLVR 8 hours ago|
Did the same thing a looong time ago. Was worried about how it would go, but it was surprisingly painless.

Love proxmox now.

_joel 1 hour ago||
Proxmox been great for decades. I used it back in 2011 when I was sysadmin for https://sahanafoundation.org/eden/ - we had multiple live instance running for the site, wiki, translation, GIS. Just when kvm was getting support too (not openvz) so it was nice an snappy running on some donated poweredge 2950's (thanks zen.co.uk!)

Deployed for Haiti, Chengdu etc. All ran perfectly.

anonymousiam 8 hours ago||
So the Linux qemu-img tool can still convert VM disk images from .vmdk into formats compatible with all the other hypervisors. Is there something more to the process of VM migration from VMWare than just using this tool (and manually creating the proper virtual hardware profile in the new hypervisor)?

Obviously the types of supported virtual hardware will be different between hypervisor types, but that's usually something that can be dealt with separately.

rwmj 2 hours ago||
The problem is how you access the disks that are sitting on a VMware server. VDDK allows you to connect and read them (in raw format, in fact) at a reasonable speed, and also understands sparseness and change block tracking.
nn3 6 hours ago||
Exactly. Either everyone is confused, or something is missing from the article.
BLKNSLVR 8 hours ago||
Can someone exfiltrate the VMWare source so that it can be distributed at a later date once Avago (Broadcom) cease?

A friend of mine said that VMWare was still the best VM platform due to the ecosystem that built around it, so it'd be nice if it could be preserved for later resurrection.

I know time moves on quickly, but it'd be a shame to lose it entirely.

I know this is promoting criminality, but there's something wrong with society if this is deemed criminal.

Disclaimer: don't (be a hero)

tosti 3 hours ago|
IIRC the guy who wrote a hypervisor for OpenBSD found severe vulnerabilities in VMware. It doesn't surprise me and I don't think a quasi-legal fork would be a worthwhile avenue.
raincom 4 hours ago||
When one becomes too comfortable with one vendor way of doing things, you end up paying 10's of millions of dollars in the end. Move the work loads to KVM, and invest in your own employees, and you can migrate off of VMware easily.
dare944 9 hours ago||
> I am of the school of thought that even if Broadcom gives VMware Standard away free for a year, it would be hard to convince customers that they need to stick with the platform

Yep. They're building the cage around you. Why would you stick around?

firesteelrain 10 hours ago||
We run a lot of ESXi with vSphere (part of overall VCF solution). It works very well. But I am part of Big Corp. so they don’t mind paying. We are good via warranties etc using what we already purchased. I don’t know that I share the same sentiment that we could have just used ProxMox. We are a Dell heavy shop and there is a new Dell Private Cloud product that is very promising. More like choose your own adventure.
Incipient 4 hours ago|
This is the only POSSIBLE rational argument for this approach. 4x price, on 1/2 the customer base is still 2x revenue with less customers to deal with. They want to keep the Big Corp clients that are happy to pay.

Now if it actually works out like this, only time will tell I suppose?

p0w3n3d 4 hours ago|
I have fond memories of the first VMWare "BIOS" running inside my windows, this was so magical.

It's sad to watch these things slowly perish

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