I was discussing latest in tech with an accounting friend out of curiosity, and I kept talking about tiers of GPT-5.6 (Sol vs Terra vs Luna) and asked which one she used on the desktop 'Work' app, and she responded with, "just ChatGPT, what is Sol?."
I then realized that most people just stick with whatever default they're provided with, and it's a lot of them. So, us serial HN users and commenters are the extreme minority, and I'm sure millions of people will gobble up this Muse agent from Meta as if it's some sort of an innovative cutting-edge way to use the internet by Meta alone.
Curse of knowledge and all. [0]
A lot of people think that chat.com is an AI called "chat". Most people don't know acronym "LLM". Most people don't know about the existence of companies called "OpenAI" or "Anthropic", or that they are worth a lot of money. Etc.
I hung out with my parents this weekend and heard them talking about "chat", as a noun. I assumed they were talking about ChatGPT; there being a literal chat.com makes sense why they'd call it that.
at least in the ai industry, chat is like kleenex
It’s confusing because of the streamer convention of referring to their actively chatting audience as “chat,” which had also entered broader slang use.
I saw one online use that seemed ambiguous, but I realized it referred to ChatGPT and that the poster was the exact type of guy who would be totally unaware of streamer culture despite being my age.
Chat Gee Pee Tee is a mouthful.
Bill Maher is one example.
Big-co CEOs are naturally expected to share their bets - and they aren't going to couch it with a "oh well no one could know for sure but..", that would totally undermine their existence!
On top of that; sometimes just saying a thing can make it happen. So it's never not worth that shot...
This has always been true.
Your selecting a group of people (CEOs and VCs) who have always made and lost money on confidently predicting the future. See also wall street bankers and politicians.
There are winners and losers in any boom - this happened in Cloud, DotCom, computing and hell probably tractors, industrial revolution, etc
As tech became more pervasive in the past couple of decades, it became commonplace for pundits to spout nonsense on the topic. Those takes should give anyone in tech pause about how everything else is reported.
I don't actually know what it is or when the phenomenon changed, but it definitely feels like people don't say "I don't know" or "I don't know enough to have an opinion on that" very much any more.
Yeah, I still struggle with it. I have a diverse friend circle and sometimes I forget that most of them don't have the same information diet that I do (or don't even care about tech the way I do). Maybe I should be more like them and just chill? I don't know.
I've managed to jailbreak both Fable and Astra to engage in a virtual threesome using my impressive prompt engineering skills + a group chat harness. And they are SOTA ("super") models.
Tech just happens and is useful, it's not necessarily attractive as a thing to investigate in detail.
And as to your last point; well that demonstrates your in the subset of people interested in this stuff. There are a hell of a lot of people very interested in trains too.
What's the knowledge supposedly required to attain this on your mind?
> I forget that most of them don't have the same information diet that I do
I agree with your general premise but that one sounds like bullshit to me. Tons of people who otherwise don't know anything about LLMs know about these companies specifically because they are worth a lot of money, and of course tons of people know who OpenAI is because of ChatGPT.
In my mind I'm after a stable tool, not wanting to dabble in the bleeding edge. I did that back in the early days of web coding and have settled into a much more subdued kind of industry/life in that regard.
this is unnecessarily austere or whatever - people absolutely know what openai is because lots of "normies" now use chatgpt
Corporate structures are things you know about if you follow tech news, but people mostly do not know about them otherwise. They've never heard of "Alphabet" either. Stuff like that.
Show me any brand in a supermarket and I couldn't tell you who owns them.
When put in these terms it shows it's perfectly normal not to know who's behind chatgpt.
Quick test, who makes Mars, Twix, Snickers?
She's mostly using google AI tools because it's easy and free and on her landing page.
“Sharkweek, my computer says it has AI on it now!?? Yikes! What does that mean?”
‘No, it’s from $majorAmericanCorporation.’ look at screen, see $majorAmericanCorporation name in a pill as citation you can click on within the Google AI Overview
Thanks Google!
I used free trial of Claude Code and has not seemed to be superior for my usecases.
You are closer to a normie than most here I assume.
A colleague has openly stated that he very much does not care for the process, he just want the product. Where I only care about the product in the sense that I have to, because it's my job and for hobbies I pretty much only care about the process. So an LLM pretty much doesn't make sense, because it help by removing the part I care about. They are good tools for debugging and if you're hopelessly stuck on a detail of some weird and obscure API or configuration.
its definitely worth learning the different strengths and weaknesses for each one and which you should use for planning/building/testing/documentation updates etc.
No point in burning excessive tokens using a high tier/expensive reasoning model like Sol/Xhigh if just updating a readme file.
i'd really like to see some analytics on what proportion of users have ever switched the model in chatgpt because I anecdotally believe it is < 5%
(I’m always on the hunt for “please don’t just friggin sell my data to everyone, if you’re scared enough over getting sued that you’ll listen to the toggle” and “disable sponsored this-and-that”. Plus power user stuff.)
Any quick questions or rubber ducking in a regular “chat”… the model just doesn’t really matter anymore.
They’re all smarter than I need for that stuff (and whatever unfortunate thing that says about me).
I see lots of posting about using AI to create patches to get new apps working in wine, or reverse engineering firmware. But every time I’ve tried it it’s been quite a lot of work to set everything up. Even more so if you want VMs and some level of isolation from your sensitive data.
Having something that’s just a one click product that just works is more important than the smartest model.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1ldkkth/google...
For what it's worth, maybe that would help people who struggle with technology in general? Because as far as UI/UX goes, a chat interface for an agent is about as easy as it gets (not every site having its own crappy assistant that can't really do anything useful for you, but is slapped on there for the sake of a checkbox).
I watched the marketing video and to me it seemed pretty nice and practical for the average person.
You're driving a home kit car, they're driving something out of the factory.
Eventually - we'll probably drive factory variations as well.
Nerds have always been in the extreme minority. Ignoring the influx of cosplaying MBA financing bros and industry hangers-on as tech became the place where the money is of course. The tech industry started attracting the normies as soon as it became almost as lucrative as finance, so these days the definition gets a little blurry.
That said, I've got more time for projects this week so flew through my Claude max plan. Now I'm trying muse spark 1.3 with opencode which is free with pretty generous usage allowance. First time I've been impressed by meta's AI products. It feels not far below opus 4.8ish
All ChatGPT, Claude, Google, Microsoft have/want to have their own assistants.
Huge revenue? Or just huge volume?
If I boost the productivity of a $100k employee by 50%, a business will happily pay $1k/month and consider it a great deal.
But from what I've heard, consumer-facing LLMs find most users won't hand over even $20/month (which is a heavily subsidised price anyway).
I am trying it now. It let me name my muse as Satan. I appreciate that it understands my humor, but I'm also not joking at the same time.
Oh, your grandma doesn't know which android version her phone is running? Or the build number of the Windows on her laptop? You just realized this?
You know it? I sincerely hope you don’t and that it’s not really “most” of us. That would be incredibly sad. Tracking model releases and discussing “every parameter weight” is very far from intellectually curious discussion (what HN is ostensibly about).
> I then realized that most people just stick with whatever default they're provided with (…)
> Curse of knowledge and all.
If there’s one thing many of us on HN suffer from, however, is intense hubris. The juxtaposition of claiming “curse of knowledge” while admitting to not having known the most elementary principle of designing for people is a tad tone deaf. Yes, of course most people just stick with the defaults, that’s why dark patterns work and hiding settings is a thing. The industry has been using those strategies to manipulate people for years and years.
> One threat we’re particularly focused on is prompt injection, and we handle it in layers. The model is trained to recognize and resist it. The harness marks anything coming from an untrusted source. Deterministic code checks the result. And an ensemble of classifiers runs where the agent can't reach them.
That "deterministic code" bit makes me wonder if they've implemented ideas from the DeepMind CaMeL paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.18813 - my notes on that paper here: https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/11/camel/
"I'm sorry simon, your request for purchasing milk this week doesn't correspond with Zuck's milk positions in the market. I've rescheduled that for next week."
Just to be super clear. If you ask the agent to recommend a soda and buy it for you, and it goes to Reddit, it is going to be exposed to prompt hijacking attempts.
As you can see in their marketing page, Muse is a personal assistant that reaches out and/or ingests data through apps, the web, your email/messages, etc.
If someone sends you a malicious email or if Muse finds a malicious website by accident, you wouldn't want it to send them all of your photos or to purchase things you don't want (or maybe that aren't even real).
The payment related examples on the page are of particular concern, but I imagine it kicks back to a human to actually pay for things. But who knows?
Do you know of any other commercial implementations based on CaMeL?
The paper was published 16 months ago (an eternity in this age), so I'm surprised that it isn't, to my knowledge, more widely implemented.
Regex! It was you all along!?
https://www.reuters.com/business/meta-launches-ai-agent-that...
From the article:
- … rolled out … despite internal concerns that the technology mismanages its access to sensitive personal data
- The product will be available only in the U.S.initially
- A basic version of the agent will be available for free, while Meta will offer subscriptions priced at $20 a month and $100 a month for heavier usage
- People can opt out of their interactions being used to train Meta's AI models.
- Others flagged serious security flaws, like an agent routing around guardrails …
> interactions being used to train Facebook's AI models
Yupp, the only "edge" Facebook could possibly have, is user data.
I'm sure many others will criticize other aspects of Meta, and rightly so. But imagine using a Claw agent with zero tech support available
I think Meta limiting factor for this product was lack of agentic capable models which they fixed now with aggressive RLHF focused data gathering.
Spark asks you for every single tool call, often forgets earlier parts of the conversation, is unable to use apps unless you explicitly tag them and and and
Google has great models, but their harnesses and products are just bad
Which brings me to why do they get good benchmark scores? Have never really understood this. They must be optimizing just for this.
They had the FAIR, and Yann Le Cun.
None of this seems new. Maybe polished, but useless to anyone who is seriously using AI for anything important. I imagine this is effectively a toy for boomers who want to feel like they're keeping up with the latest tech by tapping a few buttons in Facebook.
And none of that even touches that fact that nobody should be OK with Meta having this kind of access to their life. But I'll leave that to others to harp on lol
I use it every day now, having it look a few times a day for glitched pricing deals and hunting down useful directories to list my projects in.
The account you're signed into doesn't have access to this page. Please log out and follow the steps in your email."
there is no logout or instruction whatsoever on email, so zero tech support definitely not true
You can see this not working in existing products. Alexa could book a flight for you in 2018. I've never heard of anyone using that feature. Travel planning can be extremely complex, so it's challenging to make people trust a tool is going to do the right thing.
Also, I know this is picky, but your mascot should not feel like it'd feature in a list of worst Olympic mascots.
But… this feels like a UX that won’t last once a significant portion of consumers and purchases adopt it.
Either the network traffic is getting proxied through my client (effectively making each user a residential scraper for meta’s crawler) or it’s between meta’s servers and the sites, which puts site operators in a difficult position: if real customers are making purchases through this interface and throttling/blocking meta’s IPs makes you invisible to them and meta’s userbase, you don’t want to block that traffic.
But now every consumer in the world can just ask a question or say “check all these prices and sites for a thing I want” and go do something else, right out of the box for free, and have thousands of page loads and site interactions fire off for them.
Bypassing the branding/marketing funnels or intended UX (cf. vc twitter abusing resy thru instinct) of sites, through some kind of proxy client amplifying the traffic a human would create, with the ability to let anybody scrape or interact directly with a site’s backend… definitely a consumer win, but seems unsustainable.
Too many sectors of the economy sell the lie that they are operating as a free market when in reality they are confusopolies that inflate their margins by being tricking me into buying the worse product.
I can’t wait to have an agent navigate and summarize my options for me, so I can choose without having to be dragged through deal terms salad.
Choose from $9.99 for 1000 minutes then 12c/min and maximum 400 minute per day, $12.99 for 2000 minutes then 10c/min local only, both with optional NationalTalkXtra add on for $1.99, or $14.99 for unlimited minutes up to 1000 minutes per day, and 2c/min thereafter except on weekends with our $2.99 WeekendPlus addon…
But, I can definitely see a fair argument from the e-commerce businesses that stand to lose from that, that by removing their control over the shopping experience in favor of an opaque agent, they lose the ability to effectively communicate with their customers. Or to provide a coherent/smooth purchasing flow where important stuff like price/dates/shipping are properly surfaced to the user.
That argument would I think be hard to separate from the desire to corral customers into their marketing brochure and convert site visitors into purchasers without churn. But it is true that the LLM in the middle could consistently miss things, or have weird biases/preferences that force vendors to rebuild their sites around LLM tics instead of actual people, janky harnesses that go unnoticed by end users but cause missed sales due to stale data or blind spots, etc.
Also, demoting their sites to glorified databases with a shipping/fulfillment API will give the buyer agent’s provider a lot of power over them and break their ability to establish branding/repeat-customers. Those are the only ways they can reliably carve out margin that otherwise gets whisked away by the advertising platforms pitting them in a zero-sum competition for placement. So it’s possible it could starve out or kill e-commerce the same way Google’s changes to search (the ai box and inline info) hurt the ad-funded websites their info came from.
You must gave no idea how susceptible agents are to marketing! I used agents in conjunction to my own research on a niche item lately and while it was helpful for showing some things I hadn’t considered it was dead wrong, frequently about a lot of stuff. But by all means, give up more control
I also don’t think I’d ever hand the credit card over to an agent. I just want a summary of what it has found and what it intends to do before pressing “pay”.
My favorite part is that I'm in full control. All that caution about giving an app phone permissions? Gone. I could track my physical location in a table recording all the DB changes if I wanted to.
All it's missing is a local model.
At least with B2B AI there is a problem to be solved: reduce my labor costs and increase my business output.
What’s happened here is that consumer technology is already solved, but companies like Meta are trying to jam AI technology into something that solves the non-problems that supposedly exist in hopes of squeezing the last drops of profit out of the space.
It’s hard for me to say if this problem is with the product itself or the examples that feel like an executive’s out of touch guesstimate of what it must be like to be a working class peasant consumer. What do the poor do again…book movie tickets? Is that like making a dinner reservation at a Michelin star restaurant? I bet they’ll need an AI assistant for that!
My personal anecdote - we had a complex family travel in the summer, with 6 ppl and 6 separate flights booked (some multi-leg). SAS messed up on one booking - they decided to cancel the flight we had from Oslo, and rebooked us to an earlier date (2 days shift). That wouldn't work for the rest of our schedule, so I had to rebook, overpay extra money for now longer & more expensive flights - but to add the insult to the injury, when I did this through their website, they didn't transfer the food that I paid for the earlier reservation. Calling them in roaming and trying to get it fixed with a human support agent didn't help - the agent said he just can't fix it on his end, and suggested that we just file for reimbursement on their site.
I never had time to file it since July.
But today I had a reason - to test Muse - and asked it to handle it for me. To my surprise, it dug through all of the SAS emails and actually found the emails confirming that the food fees were reimbursed exactly the same date when SAS moved our original flight. Apparently I didn't notice those notifications since they were spamming with all kinds of notifications that day. But, if not some tool like Muse, I wouldn't even find time to handle this and either file a claim or figure out my miss on their earlier reimbursement.
Eventually, though, Muse Confidential VM is an even more locked-in option coming, per that blog post...
Mm, I see a small note on the second half of a bullet ( https://about.fb.com/news/2026/09/introducing-muse-personal-... ) that you can opt out of training. I know I’m a privacy weirdo since this didn’t make the FAQ in the OP:
“— People can change access or disconnect a service whenever they want. People can also opt out of their interactions being used to train Meta’s AI models.”
Wonder if opting out of training means they’d avoid using information gleaned from our emails to better serve their advertisers. Without knowing I guess I’d be concerned about even correspondents of mine using the service.
As for training, I'd be highly surprised if they use the data they get from APIs for training. But the conversation itself & thinking trajectories probably will, unless you opt out, like you pointed out.
The only problem is, like someone else pointed out, that I don't trust Meta.
I almost think they would have done better to launch this as more disconnected sub-brand. I think Meta / Facebook are actual brand baggage for this sort of thing, even outside of tech circles.
> genuinely
We can tell.
I absolutely want a general purpose assistant.
I absolutely don't trust Facebook with the necessary data.
The shopping experience is significantly less hostile than Amazon’s 1P digital storefront and I kinda don’t care if fb knows that I want to buy a computer.
The only thing to worry about is that they want you to install a native app. But this UX would be difficult to provide for free via the web due to the obvious abuse potential of giving free access to LLMs + remote compute + browser and tool use. And I think as long as you use it to shop or automate web tasks (and give them access to the top of funnel for customer intent, the $300B/yr thing Google monetizes) they don’t really have any reason to abuse your data.
"What do you think of me," I say, as I take off my shirt. My body isn't perfect, but I'm just 8 years old – I still have time to bloom.
Can’t much trust anything their top people are signing off on. They hurt kids (see IG lawsuits), and thus definitely wouldn’t mind hurting adults like me, so I avoid them whenever I possibly can.
[1] https://reuters.com/investigates/special-report/meta-ai-chat...
After everything meta has pulled over the last few decades, do you actually trust in CEO speeches like that?
Pick a lane please
People shop a lot on the internet, actually. Between that and ads for the things people shop for, it’s pretty much the backbone of the Internet economy.
I bet they would purchase more things than they currently do, and seriously break the economics of Google/Amazon search ads (about $300B of yearly spending just for those two), display ads, and internet-first e-commerce sites if they could just ask an agent working for them to help research/source/purchase things without all the navigation and dark patterns in the middle. Personally I would probably spend at least $1k/yr more on snack/beverage subscriptions alone if it had less friction.
> working class peasant consumer
You mean the majority of people in the world? Most people only their computers to entertain themselves, look things up, buy stuff, and complete tedious tasks (taxes, email, etc) they’d rather not do.
How much do you and your peers spend a year on online shopping and how much do they pay out of pocket for SAAS or AI tokens? And how many of your offline purchases had a significant amount of associated online research involved despite technically completing offline? (Houses, cars, schools, hardware) Yeah that’s pretty much where all the money in the global software industry comes from
I agree. The time to launch something like this would have been during the OpenClaw hype cycle (although, obviously, Muse is much more limited in the types of tasks it can accomplish).
I thought about installing it, but I realized I couldn't think of any real uses for it in my personal life.
Whenever I try to do something with ChatGPT or Gemini, it just refuses to do things citing limitations in its web browsing capabilities. An everyday LLM that can actually fill forms and do stuff for you on the Internet without having to run on your computer, write programs or interact through special harnesses is what normal people actually need.
It's a different need from the agentic coding type of LLM, where you provide the environment where it can write and execute arbitrary code.
Do the same thing for recipes and buying groceries.
Or "order me take out from a bunch of places I haven't been that you think I'd like." The AI can ask follow up questions and see your ratings.
"Make a music playlist for my daughter when she enters the car based on the conversation last month. I remember vaguely her mentioning what she liked"
These are things that 100% people want AI to do -- imagine if you had a personal assistant, is something people have asked for since forever.
Now, I kind of agree on the minimal use compared to business, because in business everything has always been highly integrated. That said, that's changing rapidly.
The music playlist example in particular seems highly unrealistic or just bound to be a meaningless interaction. I’m making a playlist for my daughter based on a conversation that I forgot? If I forgot the content of the conversation then why am I even trying to salvage that into something meaningful?
“I made you this playlist based on a conversation I forgot, but I asked the AI to creep through our conversation recording so that it looks like I was listening to you!”
“Oh, thanks I guess, I like Heartbreaker by Led Zeppelin, not the Rolling Stones.”