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Posted by datakan 2 days ago

LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'(www.tomshardware.com)
https://www.lg.com/global/newsroom/news/statements/statement...
460 points | 377 commentspage 2
mordae 12 hours ago|
Remember that one time when music CDs from Sony MBG installed a rootkit on your PC that continuously sent whatever MP3s you had on your PC back to them?
pampas 52 minutes ago||
Remember that time when NSA director James Clapper reassured us they're not the baddies.

"Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"

"No, sir."

stephbook 10 hours ago|||
Remember when Amazon deleted books from customers' Kindles (eBook reader), and the book they decided to remotely burn was .. 1984 from Orwell.
SaucyWrong 11 hours ago|||
I was alive for that but had forgotten about it…wild.
stackghost 10 hours ago|||
Yep and they were fined a paltry 6 million dollars or so. For actively distributing and infecting users with malware. This on annual sales exceeding $3B.

That case sure put Mark Russinovich on everyone’s radars, at least.

Good times.

oceansky 10 hours ago|||
First time hearing of this
Klathmon 9 hours ago||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...

As the saying goes, this is what radicalized me. If any one of us did anything close to this we would be treated like Aaron Swartz and given a 35+ year prison sentence.

But in the Sony case the DOJ didn't even threaten criminal charges.

Veserv 52 minutes ago||
Since lawyers just love engaging in language lawyering when things get to court and always use to most uncharitable interpretation of words, we have no choice but to interpret their words in the most uncharitable and technically correct fashion. In that context, let us examine their lawyer-drafted statement.

> LG smart TVs do not continuously record or transmit users’ conversations.

"or" is ambiguous in the English language. A lawyer can rightly argue that they mean exclusive or and thus they are being technically truthful as long as they both continuously record and transmit users' conversations. They can resolve this ambiguity by stating each element as a independent sentence.

"continuously" means without end. A lawyer can rightly argue that as long as the recording can end in a single instance, then they are being technically truthful.

> Speech-to-text processing begins only if a user activates a voice interaction through a supported wake-word feature or by pressing the voice (or AI) button on the remote control.

"processing begins" makes no indication as to when it ends. A lawyer can rightly argue that as long as you use a wake-word a single time or press the voice button on the remote control a single time, they can begin processing and never stop. They can resolve this ambiguity by stating that they only process audio during a session and that session has a strict maximum duration.

Also, it makes no statement as to audio processing, only speech-to-text processing. A lawyer can rightly argue that as long as they do not convert the speech to text and just directly transmit the audio they are being truthful. They can resolve this ambiguity by removing the narrowly defined "speech-to-text" and changing it to "audio". Weird their lawyers made this so specific.

> Audio used for wake-word detection is processed locally on the TV and, if no wake word is detected, audio is not converted to text, stored, or transmitted.

Narrowly defined to be only "Audio used for wake-word detection". A lawyer can rightly argue that if they make a second copy of the audio that does not go to wake-word detection, then they can convert it to text, store, and transmit it. They can resolve this ambiguity by removing the narrowly defined "Audio used for wake-word detection" to just state that they do not convert to text, store, or transmit any audio outside of a session. Weird their lawyers made this so specific.

> Voice-recognition results and related technical logs may be generated as part of processing a voice command. These records are associated with specific voice interactions and do not indicate continuous recording of conversations occurring outside an active voice recognition session.

"These records ... do not indicate continuous recording" is not a denial that they are continuously recording. It merely states that it does not indicate continuous recording. A lawyer can rightly argue that as long as they have at least one record that is not associated with a continuous recording, then they are being truthful. No need to remove ambiguity here as it would be covered by the above fixes.

> Speech-recognition results may be used to support voice-related features but are not uploaded later when the TV is offline or when connectivity is restored.

"but are not uploaded later when the TV is offline or when connectivity is restored". Again, "or". Only mentions later, no statement about "now". Their lawyers can rightly argue that as long as they upload them immediately they are being truthful.

"uploaded later when the TV is offline" is illogical nonsense, how is it uploading when it is offline? Their lawyers can rightly argue that as long as they upload later when the TV is online and the TV never lost connectivity, then they are being truthful.

They can remove the ambiguity by stating that they never upload the speech-recognition results or only retain them until the voice-related feature has completed the task. Weird how their lawyers made this so specific.

> ACR uses audio fingerprinting technology using the TV’s internal audio processor (not a speaker) to identify content and does not collect screenshots, screen recordings, video recordings, voice recordings, or other audio recordings from the TV.

Again, "or". "uses" does not mean exclusively uses. "collect" only means ACR does not collect it. This does not indicate that screenshots, screen recordings, video recordings, voice recordings, or other audio recordings are not collected by other processes. It does not indicate that they do not use the resources collected by those other processes. They can remove the ambiguity by stating that ACR does not "use" these data sources and exclusively uses audio fingerprinting technology. Weird how their lawyers made this so specific.

Truly so odd how their lawyers make such precise, minute, and nuanced distinctions for their benefit, but leave everything else so ambiguous they can rightfully argue a tortured interpretation is technically truthful. If they were lawyers on behalf of the consumers, they would never accept such ambiguous language. Must be accidental.

jasonkhanlar 10 hours ago||
"LG Says We're Fake News" - Gamers Nexus https://youtu.be/ToP9xfLDSME
taylorfinley 9 hours ago||
Wow. I hope Gamers Nexus sues for defamation.
HelloUsername 12 hours ago||
Change url to source? https://www.lg.com/global/newsroom/news/statements/statement...

Also they provided a statement earlier to Gizmodo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49628328

runjake 12 hours ago||
> "LG also said that its features like “Automatic Content Recognition (ACR), voice recognition, and interest-based advertising are optional,” and “not enabled by default.”

I am absolutely certain that ACR was enabled on our new TV by default, back some years ago. I am nearly certain their voice recognition, and advertising spying were enabled on our TV by default.

If none of this is truly "enabled by default" then this is a recent development.

I discovered this many years ago and did some deep dives, and unfortunately didn't publish anything about it. Lesson learned.

judge2020 2 hours ago||
It is not enabled by default, but conveniently it's toggled on if you accept the ACR terms of service - including if you select "agree to all" - during TV setup and/or when downloading or updating any apps.
jimt1234 11 hours ago||
A few months ago, my Roku TV started displaying these weird popups, saying something like, "Looks like you're watching college basketball. Did you know Roku-TV also has college basketball?" - something like that. Well, for the Roku device, yes, there was a setting I could disable, but (1) Roku pushed this 'feature' and made it default without my knowledge/consent, and (2) the config setting says the popups will stop, but it doesn't mention the data collection; my assumption is they're still collecting that data for their own data analytics purposes.
cogman10 10 hours ago|||
Pretty much the exact reason I stopped using Roku. I bought a streaming device to stream, but apparently roku decided selling devices wasn't lucrative enough so they started selling ads instead.

I really wish there was a better way to do a media center linux.

antoniojtorres 10 hours ago|||
Same experience here. Roku has been doing opt-in ACR for a while now. Pulled the ethernet cable out that same day.
latentsea 1 hour ago||
Last time a company said something wasn't true, it actually wasn't true, so LG must also be telling the truth. No incentive to lie. Corporations usually don't do that. They're run by honest, empathetic people.
pastor_williams 12 hours ago||
If you live in the United States you should find out who your state senator and representative are and write a letter to them asking them to propose, and support legislation prohibiting spying and increasing consumer privacy protection.

Kentucky passed HB 692 unanimously requiring smart TVs to ask permission if they are going to be spying on us. Ask your state legislature to follow their lead and pass some very popular consumer privacy protection.

Koshcheiushko 11 hours ago||
I've one question: I've used android phone (realme, which is chinese). And i remember that whenever we used to discuss somethings among our friends, i started used to get ads realated to that on my laptop, phone within atmost a hour.

So, was realme transcribing all conversations and uploading it? Can someone answer?

VPenkov 11 hours ago||
Wired wrote an article in 2017 [1] on whether it's possible/probable to do that. Technology has evolved a lot since then, so it's a lot more feasible, but the article describes how far metadata alone can go.

For example, let's say an ad network knows your and your friends' location, and knows you've met because you've been close together frequently, or are using the same wifi network. You talk about perfumes, then later one of them looks up perfumes on their phone. Google would usually have access to this much metadata, and will likely serve you perfume ads because of your friend who later looked it up.

This doesn't directly answer your question though. The answer would be - it's possible, but a lot is possible without that.

[1] https://archive.is/OyuUO

dpkirchner 11 hours ago|||
I don't know, but I suspect the battery drain would be substantial. I wonder if there is a different explanation: maybe one of your friends searched for information on the topic while you were on the same hotspot/in the same location and that (along with existing relationship graphs?) allowed them to target you? That's how I'd do it, I think.
ppeetteerr 11 hours ago|||
There is a real possibility that either something you saw triggered the conversation and/or that you remember the ad because you spoke about it. It’s enough to linger on an ad for the platform to recognize your interest and serve you more ads like it.
jeroenhd 9 hours ago|||
It's technically possible but very unlikely. Running TTS continuously is a big battery drain and slows down the rest of the phone while you're using it. Google has a live TTS service for hearing impaired which I've run for a while to test it, and even with it practically built into the OS it's sucking up battery like you'd expect it to.

It's more likely that this is all due to external forces. Having your device on the same network, in close enough proximity to detect each other, for instance, combined with one of your friends having Googled the stuff you were talking about.

Or just basic data collection. There's the classic story about how supermarkets know you're pregnant before you do, just based on the groceries you buy (no, not pregnancy tests). Ad networks buy and collect a humongous amount of information about everyone and serve ultra specific targeted ads based on nothing more than pattern matching based on what the rest of humanity is doing.

It's impossible to rule out that the thing did run a 24/7 TTS service, but I think the depressing fact that ad networks don't need to listen to our conversations to know what we're talking about is more probable.

OroPla 10 hours ago|||
You don't need monitoring for that to work. Just something like "Hey, Google". The device knows a bunch of keywords and when it hears them it's bingo. As long as your laptop and phone are logged into the same local network with the same public IP they'll get the same ads.

And your phone most likely already listens all the time to catch an "Hey, Google" (or something similar).

mitxela 8 hours ago|||
No phone has ever been caught doing that. But TVs and phones have been caught collaborating. What brand is your TV?
neom 11 hours ago|||
Good read: https://www.amitracked.com/learn/is-my-phone-listening-to-me
tadfisher 10 hours ago|||
Absolutely not a good read. Informative, but it tortures the language, as is usual for slop.
neom 8 hours ago||
I think, sadly, I'm becoming immune to slop because I (till now) believed I'm good at reading through LLM junk and that read quite normally to me. How annoying. My apologies.
gruez 10 hours ago|||
I agree with the conclusion, but the whole article is obviously AI slop.
1shooner 11 hours ago|||
I think the disappointing reality is that those ad networks have enough access to the content of your attention (and therefore what you talk to your friends about) that the technical cost and risk of surreptitious audio monitoring just isn't necessary.
ethagnawl 11 hours ago||
People always dismiss this as FUD but it's been happening to me more than ever. I know in many cases it is more likely that firms are acquiring purchase histories and location data but that doesn't explain other incidents.

For example, last week I was complaining to my spouse about shoulder pain and how I was afraid I may need another surgery. YouTube has suddenly starting flooding my feed with videos about "shoulder exercises to avoid surgery." I hadn't searched any of those terms, purchased anything or visited an orthopedic, so I don't know what else could possibly explain it.

fn-mote 9 hours ago|||
The alternative explanation is that your spouse searched up something related to your situation.

That’s the next possibility to eliminate.

I am positive I get ads based on the interests of other people the wifi where I live.

tcoff91 10 hours ago|||
It could have been something as simple as lingering on some kind of content related to physical therapy on a social media feed before scrolling past it, or maybe your wife googled it and it got correlated via network?
fhub 6 hours ago||
“LG TVs process voice data only when the voice button on the remote control is pressed and held, or when a wake word such as 'Hi LG' is recognized after the user has activated the Far-Field voice recognition feature."

The definition of “process” is really important and is missing. LG could process all transcripts on their servers too and stay within a very wonky definition of “process” on the TV that excludes transcription and transmission.

Terr_ 9 hours ago|
A quixotic legal dream: All consumer data-surveillance must take the form of an opt-in monthly payment plan, which either side can cancel.

So the TV gets advertised as "$$$, but basically $$ if you sign up to be surveilled and get a $/month check back." If the company sets $/month too low--or is too creepy about what they collect--people just won't opt-in.

But what happens if they promise big pay-backs but routinely cancel from their side? That's a problem, but at least it's a kind the market [0] can handle when it comes to reputation and bad reviews.

[0] "Markets are good, use them." -- "OK, fine, you must price this on a market." -- "NOT LIKE THAT!"

N_Lens 4 hours ago|
More like "a capitalism fever dream"
Terr_ 1 hour ago||
You can tell it isn't, because the people with all the capital have a reduced set of choices for screwing you over.
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