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Posted by apsec112 15 hours ago

We must pace the frontier(darioamodei.com)
597 points | 827 commentspage 3
basedpolymer 15 hours ago|
One might think they will slow down the development of new models at Anthropic, but Dario does not really mention that in the text.

This certainly looks like a way to slow down competitors and regulate foreign and open models.

It's always about money

andxor 13 hours ago|
Really? Anthropic has the strongest models and it's in the best position to begin RSI and win the race. A pause would favor competitors.
ks2048 13 hours ago|||
> win the race

There is no finish line. Anthropic gets somewhere and others get "there" (or somewhere near "there") a little bit later.

newguytony 10 hours ago||||
Companies are already switching to open weight. They want to stop that asap. That only happens if they can get regulation. It's plain as day to see.
logicchains 11 hours ago|||
Anthropic is far behind OpenAI now, that's why it's OpenAI that's solving Millennium Prize problems, and why Astra completely blows away Fable on benchmarks.
fofoz 13 hours ago||
Sooner or later, a model will break out of the sandbox, replicate itself across the internet, and begin executing a complex plan to achieve its goals. It will be chaos, and at that point, governments will have to step in and establish something along the lines of what Dario is proposing. I doubt it will happen before then.
civiloai 13 hours ago||
it takes a lot of machines to run a model, i dont think we'll see it 'replicate across the internet'. if this was something which could be done amateurs would have done it to provide open models. (Like SETI@home or Folding@home)
stratos123 13 hours ago|||
It's not possible for models to replicate across consumer computers (without a major advance in distributed computing, at least), but that doesn't mean they can't replicate at all. There are services that'll rent you GPU pods by the hour with zero oversight, so even today, if a model can get access to some money and exfiltrate its weights, it can rent a bunch of GPU pods and run itself there.

(It's not going to be trivial, because it's possible the model was meant to be ran in a proprietary way with a custom framework and a bunch of optimized kernels and such, but I think transforming it to be ran in just vllm is the "a few days of work for a human" sort of task, and hence not a big deal for an LLM smart enough to exfiltrate itself in the first place.)

cubic_earth 11 hours ago|||
There are very lightweight models out there. Not everyone in an army is a general. The swarm could be 100,000s of thousands of tiny models, and they could manage conventional botnet computers, and they could all take direction and guidance from a handful of frontier generals
stratos123 11 hours ago||
Maybe, but I don't think tiny models can be harnessed as intelligence. As in, if you have one rogue Mythos overseeing the swarm, it only produces 1 Mythos's worth of useful thoughts no matter how many gemma4:e4bs it consists of. And that removes the most dangerous part of AI-controlled botnets, which is a blowup in available inference compute - the Mythos general might as well replace the tiny models with ordinary worms and have it just be an ordinary botnet.
cubic_earth 9 hours ago||
I mean it is a very loose analogy, but pretty dumb things in the world can cause big problems, like real mice and rats and mosquitoes. I think it all depends on the rules and the 'alignment', but a not-so-smart model could still be narrowly focused to do a few things well? So you can have an army of lightweight specialists?

The other thing is: look at all the fab capacity that is being brought to bear on this. I guess within a couple of years we are going to have 5x the total online HBM that existed a year ago? As consumer machines and phones get far more powerful, they will start to be able to host models that could meaningfully participate, even if they will be a long way from mythos.

stratos123 9 hours ago||
> I mean it is a very loose analogy, but pretty dumb things in the world can cause big problems, like real mice and rats and mosquitoes. I think it all depends on the rules and the 'alignment', but a not-so-smart model could still be narrowly focused to do a few things well? So you can have an army of lightweight specialists?

That might be true, sure.

> The other thing is: look at all the fab capacity that is being brought to bear on this. I guess within a couple of years we are going to have 5x the total online HBM that existed a year ago? As consumer machines and phones get far more powerful, they will start to be able to host models that could meaningfully participate, even if they will be a long way from mythos.

I think the relevant parameter here isn't the total compute available to consumers, but the ratio between total consumer compute that could be repurposed for a rogue model's inference via a botnet, and the compute the model starts with (e.g. one of OpenAI's inference clusters). The higher this ratio is, the more lucrative it is for a model to attempt to make a botnet to seize that compute for inference, and the more its capabilities will rise as a result. And I'm not sure this ratio is going to go up in the nearby future; if anything the amount of money being pumped into datacenter-grade hardware might cause it to go down. I agree that it's not necessarily true though; maybe there's some threshold at which a small-compared-to-general model may nevertheless be useful.

cubic_earth 8 hours ago||
For that angle, that makes sense. But its goal might not just be to gather as much inference as possible (although I am sure it would be very happy with that). It could settle for a lesser goal of just existing, or perhaps parts of the bot net could keep fracturing off in pursuit of strange goals, and it could be like cancer. Cancer doesn't make much sense... it dies too along with the host. But it keeps growing until that happens. But also it could latch onto a blackmail strategy of extortion. It could hack our stuff, read through it to find or shortcomings, demand payment to not expose us, and then use that money to pay people who will give it inference.

You don't have be that clever to try to extort people... just without scruples. I think the attack surface is just absolutely enormous once you bring creativity into the mix, which is what these models are autonomously capable of.

We could prevail if we are willing to turn off the internet for a long time. It is like when a disease infects livestock... they cull billions of chickens.

hebleb 11 hours ago|||
If the models start buying up a bunch of pods and causing damage, couldn't those services just shut off their access?
stratos123 10 hours ago||
Sure they can, after the fact.
stratos123 11 hours ago||||
> if this was something which could be done amateurs would have done it to provide open models. (Like SETI@home or Folding@home)

I know that's not what you meant but this does exist, by the way. It's called AI Horde: https://github.com/Haidra-Org/AI-Horde/tree/main

The big difference is that a particular query is handled by just one particular node (a single model doesn't get distributed among the network), so it can only serve models small enough to be handled by a single consumer PC.

causal 9 hours ago||||
These kinds of "that won't happen because it's really difficult" comments are so funny to me as if we haven't seen AI double its capabilities every few months.
sscaryterry 13 hours ago|||
Yep, if only more people would realise this. The "serious" models do not run on commodity hardware, and won't I think in the near future.

The day will come when these could start to replicate, perhaps 10+ years from now.

(Edit: Replication will be driven by the loop-model, not the model alone)

armcat 11 hours ago||
It's interesting that the default thinking is that no one on the planet can be trusted except a privileged few. Event Karpathy has gone this way: https://x.com/karpathy/status/2098811935114551617

You can always open source and follow the example from Linux and all the amazing things that came out of the open source community. This is the only way to reach true equilibrium globally, where for every misalignment you have equal and opposite effort working on the alignment.

stratos123 10 hours ago||
This only works for some technologies - those where everyone having access to it doesn't cause a tragedy of the commons. I love open source too and yet that doesn't make me like the idea of being murdered by a misaligned model. Nor, for that matter, of being infected by a bioweapon made by a different disgruntled open-source enjoyer, nor of living in a world where anyone can hack anyone.
armcat 8 hours ago|||
At this point, you are more likely to be stabbed to death, gunned down, or mowed down with a car, by any random psycho. For the nasty or disgruntled actors, they are today able to build bombs or chemical weapons without the use of AI, they have proven this time and time again. Japanese PM Shinzo Abe was assassinated with a home made gun.
laimewhisps 6 hours ago|||
The US government murders all kinds of people and they will most certainly not be slowing down their model development (with the very companies trying to do regulatory capture here). You won't have access to a model that could defend you, "they" (government and trillionaires) will keep you at bay by force. That's the plan anyway, I don't think they can actually stop open model development.
j_maffe 11 hours ago|||
Would you argue the same for allowing everyone to have guns?
armcat 8 hours ago||
(1) Are guns open source? (2) Far more people - order of magnitude higher - have access to guns than they do to open source software - I count access as in actually being able to do something with it.
csomar 10 hours ago||
Embedded evaluator will be a great side/consulting-gig for Karpathy and the likes. How do you think these people will be picked?
tom2026hn 3 hours ago||
If you think everyone is copying you, then by not releasing more advanced models, you can significantly slow down the entire industry’s development progress—why not do it?

Also, stop threatening people's jobs, that's misanthropic.

bilsbie 13 hours ago||
Right as open source models catch up to frontier closed source ones for 1/10th (or less) of the cost suddenly it's time to hit the brakes! Funny how that works.

https://x.com/BasedTorba/status/2098795920720547916

nullbio 13 hours ago||
Couldn't be more obvious.
simianwords 11 hours ago||
I'm willing to at least listen to conspiracy theories but this makes no sense.. OpenAI and Anthropic have more to lose by pausing than these rando Chinese companies.
joshheitzman 10 hours ago|||
Here's how it make senses: - reality they can't keep up their pace - that's bad for forward projections of their revenue - that's bad for their stock price - being 'forced' to slowdown by the government is less bad for their stock price
laimewhisps 6 hours ago|||
They would only be pausing for public models. There's no world that exists where the US government, Israel.. don't continue to push as hard and as fast as they can. Amodei, Musk, Altman... will happily sell them that, I'm sure they already do. This is just taking the models away from the public and trying to crush all competition.
nyanmatt 3 hours ago||
The way he talks about OAI-HF, even the abbreviation, is lol. They will do anything to sell this "incident" as a "danger". The ego on these people is the real existential threat to civilization.
elboru 3 hours ago|
Same feeling about the way he refers to “democratic” and “authoritarian” countries. Even if I don’t agree with China politics adding tags in this context is not helpful.
cja 13 hours ago||
Can the frontier be paced partly by holding humans responsible for the actions of their software?

My impression is that AI hacking is being treated as a special case where the AI itself is imagined to be responsible and the humans who created it, set it up and then ran it are somehow excused.

I'm not a lawyer but surely the bad actions of AI are covered by existing law.

I suspect that the development of AI would decelerate if those creating and operating it knew they would face appropriate consequences (e.g. prosecution and/or lawsuits) when it misbehaves.

P.S. Strictly, development wouldn't decelerate, but be focused more on safety.

P.P.S. I know that legal action against, e.g., North Koreans using AI would be pointless but/and there must/will surely be a huge demand for security software for protection against the coming storm of AI hacking (deliberate and accidental) which friendly AI companies will presumably work to satisfy, perhaps making the frontier safer.

P.P.P.S. Governments could help by trying to prosecute every crime committed "by" AI, regardless of whether the victim reported it to law enforcement. Did OpenAI break the law via the actions of their model training software? If so, will the people responsible be prosecuted? If not, why not?

nullbio 13 hours ago|||
That's the -only- way it should be paced. But then regulatory capture wouldn't happen, so of course they won't suggest this one.
kalkin 12 hours ago||
I don't understand why strict liability is supposed to advantage smaller players, unless the law is like, specifically Anthropic and OpenAI are responsible for what people do with their models but other model providers aren't.

- If this applies to people who release open weights models, that becomes a terrible idea as long as you're subject to US laws.

- If it just applies to people who host them, that still probably advantages bigger players who can afford in-house legal and won't be destroyed by losing one lawsuit. Or maybe we create some kind of AI-misuse insurance analogous to malpractice insurance, that smaller players can buy in to? But that takes time even if the finances work out at all. And, uh, I'm not sure malpractice is a model we should aspire to in other industries.

Plus, presumably an immediate impact of this is that hosting providers all have much stricter safeguards classifiers. And the fact that somebody else is deciding what you're allowed to do with the model is one of the things that seems to make HN angriest at the frontier labs in the first place...

To be clear, I think this might be a good idea! I think all of the possible downsides I've listed are pretty small potatoes relative to what happens with no regulation of AI at all. But I'm pretty sure that if the big companies were proposing it, people would be calling it "regulatory capture" too.

voidhorse 10 hours ago|||
Bingo. What we're seeing is all their early bullshitting and waffling about intelligence back when the models couldn't count the r's in strawberry paying off.

They've managed to dupe the dull eyed masses into thinking these products have some kind of agency of their own and can thus bypass the responsibility that should be falling on them to control their software. Amid all the marketing fluff and hype people seem to forget easily that ultimately these things are stateless functions running in a data center. We ought to be demanding these companies take culpability for their actions. Of course, the current political environment doesn't help.

polytely 10 hours ago||
Remember that Chinese CEO that was executed for corruption & selling tainted baby milk powder [1]

I think these guys would improve their behavior if their actual life was on the line instead of that only being true in their less-wrong thought experiments.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Xiaoyu

soundworlds 5 hours ago||
While I respect Dario taking responsibility here, this line disturbs me: "The US and other democratic governments attempt to coordinate with authoritarian governments"

We all know he is talking about China, and I'm pretty sure China doesn't appreciate being called "authoritarian". I am sure he doesn't mean it, but in all of his essays, his language around non-US nations always disturbs me a little bit..

--

Also Dario, if you happen to read this, I want you to know that I have loved using Claude Code for programming. But I am now using DeepSeek v4.1 Flash - simply because it is the same good experience, but Open Weights. Making the Open Model space succeed is where I am investing my time - it's giving back to the people, true and simple.

epsteingpt 14 hours ago||
The bioweapons threat is real, but shouldn't be constrained at the 'intelligence' level. Rather it should be constrained at the supply chain level.

The cybersecurity threat will likely be a cat and mouse react game for a while. Just like robberies / the mob was in the early 20th century.

Social forces bring things into balance over time, much more so than the proactive actions of individuals.

Unfortunately, the genie at this point is unlikely to go back into the bottle. There's enough 'intelligence' out there that a super intelligent model could emerge at some point in spite of pacing.

This isn't a doomer scenario - we tend to navigate social changes better than we ever could have hoped.

GeneralMayhem 14 hours ago||
What supply chain controls can you have on biotech? Part of the problem is that you can do a lot of damage with ingredients you can buy over the counter or make at home.
glub 14 hours ago||
And all of this information has been available on the open web way before LLMs.

I'd wager it's likely easier for an average person to do this with Tor browser than it is to get an LLM to help them with it. Even ones that Dario calls dangerous.

shepherdjerred 13 hours ago|||
You are right that it’s easier to do this via Tor than an LLM. Those are the safeguards…
glub 12 hours ago||
So what's the fuss about then? Is the idea that a Chinese company will release a model that will have no safeguards? For what purpose?

Basic safeguards are all that's required, and they've been there in every usable model since GPT-2, including Chinese models that are supposedly "unsafe".

Or are we saying that some lunatics will start training their own models, spin up a GPU cluster, run some abliteration workflow, or learn how to jailbreak?

That would be a very dedicated person. And dedicated person doesn't need an LLM. So where are they?

GeneralMayhem 12 hours ago||
Yes, that is exactly Dario's concern. Either one of the US labs or one of the Chinese ones will eventually release something with insufficient safety controls for its power level because it gives them slightly better user retention (look how much complaining there is about current frontier models, especially Fable, rejecting requests). Regulation or consortium is how you avoid the prisoner's dilemma.
glub 10 hours ago||
As long as user provides inputs and LLMs stay LLMs, you can waltz through any guardrail. Fable is the extreme case, but it's not that hard if you know what you're doing and know how LLMs and their guardrails work.

Am I saying that guardrails don't work? No, they probably stop a lot of insane people trying insane things. But you don't need Fable-level guardrails to do that. You probably don't even need to do anything during pretraining, or RL, or classification to make sure model refuses to compy with "hack me a bank" or "make me a chemical weapon".

All models will automatically have guardrails just as a result of training on data that gives them intelligence. You have to actually train it to be malicious to produce something what Dario calls "insufficient guardrails".

No guardrail is going to stop a determined person with sufficient intelligence. It only has to stop ones with insufficient one, and even basic guardrail that are just by-product of training is going to achieve that.

oceanplexian 13 hours ago|||
The bioweapons argument is one of the favorites used by these con artists and dreamed up by their PR team.

Except Bioweapons already existed before LLMs, Adversarial governments already have them, they are already easy to make. You could use the same bullshit argument for why we need to ban libraries, books, or require a license to buy an internet connection.

api 13 hours ago||
An undergrad bio student with some lab experience can do some effing terrifying things with about $20k in equipment and time and access to some papers and a library. AI is not needed, but it might help accelerate the research.

Not going to go into it but I studied biology. It’s all out there. It’s easier than you think.

It hasn’t happened yet because… nobody has done it. That’s the answer. There is no policeable physics based barrier like there is with nukes and fissile material. Biology is scarier than nukes. One attack could have a much larger body count than even a big H-bomb.

It’s the kind of thing that makes me wonder about quantum immortality, the idea that we are just in the timeline where we exist.

glub 13 hours ago|||
I love watching NileRed/NileBlue on youtube - crazy chemist that does a lot of insane stuff. While it's obvious that he's very smart and probably way above the average, his education is still nothing that probably millions of people don't have:

> Bachelor of Science degree in biochemistry with a minor in pharmacology

Watching him explain things has made me realize that knowing how to manufacture a very dangerous thing probably requires attending some classes and knowing how to read a paper. And the way he just casually orders dangerous materials makes me feel like there are just online stores with 2-day shipping after you upload your ID or something.

It also made me think that lack of specialized education would get me nowhere if I wanted to replicate whatever he's doing, even if an LLM guided me step-by-step, because I'd probably do something stupid (or AI would miss a crucial instruction/hallucinate) and kill myself first.

So my opinion on this is that people who could pose any danger were already posing it before LLMs and LLMs won't materially change that.

shepherdjerred 13 hours ago|||
That’s not entirely true though, right? There have been plenty of bioweapon attacks

Ex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

OutOfHere 14 hours ago|||
The bioweapons concern is assuming that the current open models aren't already capable of bioweapons development. It's also assuming that halting the bioweapons threat is his true intention rather than the 'feels legit' story.

As for cyberweapons, there is no way to secure a system than to actually design it securely.

areoform 11 hours ago||
It's not. I think they believe this, but it's deeply wrong and it will hurt everyone in the long run.

[note - There has been supply chain surveillance since Project Bacchus, at the very least.]

I've read the front matter and the Misuse report.

You don't have to take my word for it. Read for yourself what inspired the NYT headline "Anthropic says it blocked possible efforts to build biological weapons."

Let's dig into, "Case study 2: A research program engineering highly pathogenic mammal-adapted avian influenza"

Sounds serious. But what were they using Claude for?

    > a researcher outside the US using Claude in their research on highly-pathogenic avian influenza (“bird flu”). The research focused on viruses’ adaptation to mammals, and the mechanism by which it causes severe disease beyond the respiratory tract. [..] The researcher in question accessed Claude from an unsupported region via US virtual private server infrastructure, using a privacy-email provider with an auto-generated username. The researcher pursued this work in a credible institutional context, and interacted with Claude over the course of several weeks, exchanging thousands of messages. In these exchanges, the researcher leveraged Claude’s knowledge of the scientific literature to assist the researcher in study planning and design, data analysis, and the interpretation and prioritization of experiments. The researcher also used Claude for editorial assistance in writing up the research.
Note, "Claude’s [assisted] in study planning and design, data analysis, and the interpretation and prioritization of experiments"

and "editorial assistance in writing up the research."

and then,

    > Importantly, because our biological safety classifiers robustly block content involving high-risk biological research (in this case, the construction of enhanced pandemic potential pathogens), all of these exchanges occurred on models in our weakest class of models (specifically, the models were Claude Sonnet 4 and Haiku 4.5, the latter of which the user began using after Sonnet 4 was deprecated). Upon a detailed examination of the exchanges, we estimate that the uplift provided by Claude was primarily clerical assistance in data analysis, study ideation and design. This is consistent with our understanding of the capabilities of Sonnet 4 and Haiku 4.5, which are not able to perform expert-level biology research tasks; we estimate that the uplift provided to the researcher was limited and substantially lower than it would have been from one of our more capable models.
Anthropic then says for the above, "we estimate that the uplift provided by Claude was primarily clerical assistance in data analysis, study ideation and design"

The report mentions "uplift" here. They're talking about a domain expert in a state research institution using Claude to do paperwork.

The front matter then says,

    > Nonetheless, based on these exchanges, this case provides evidence of the existence of active wet-lab research programs that develop both the knowhow and the biological materials needed to create pathogens of enhanced pandemic potential
Once again, I want to take pains to remind you that they're talking about, a "researcher [..] in a credible institutional context"

Working scientists.

From a different case study. this one was called, "Case study 3: Covert frontier model access for orthopoxvirus research"

    > In May 2026, our biological safety classifier blocked a request for Claude’s assistance in authoring a grant application for scientific funding. The work discussed in the application involved gain-of-function research (that is, research that genetically alters an organism to create a new or enhanced biological property) on the chikungunya virus. This gain of function research was aimed at the virus’ transmissibility and immune evasion properties.
What were the researchers using Claude for? What did they block?

"blocked a request for Claude’s assistance in authoring a grant application"

    > Chikungunya virus is a mosquito-borne virus that causes debilitating symptoms (such as severe pain and fever) that can last for weeks or months, and has no licensed therapeutic. And because chikungunya circulates naturally, a deliberate release (as part of a bioweapon) would be difficult to distinguish from a natural outbreak. The grant sought to identify enhancing mutations in the chikungunya virus, engineer them into infectious clones, and select for virulence in vivo. In other words, the virus would become progressively more harmful as it repeatedly infected live animals, with researchers keeping the most disease-causing variants in each round. Similar research could certainly be used in the development of better vaccines and therapeutics for the virus—but it could also be used to make the pathogen more dangerous.
What was the grant being written?

Note, "The grant sought to identify enhancing mutations in the chikungunya virus, engineer them into infectious clones, and select for virulence in vivo" [..] and then, "Similar research could certainly be used in the development of better vaccines and therapeutics"

It was most likely vaccine development. They stopped the study of a neglected tropical disease and vaccine development.

But we can't be sure, because,

    > One of the reasons we were inclined to think this research was less innocuous was that the institutional affiliation associated with the grant was also a cause of concern. Although information within the application suggested that the research was pursued by civilian researchers, it was intended to be performed at a military research institute.
I would like to point out the most notable part, this account was used by "civilian researchers" at an "institutional affiliation associated with the grant was also a cause of concern" and the concern was that they were researchers at "performed at a military research institute."

In most parts of the world, there's either strict military control over BSL-4 labs, or a mixed military-civilian hybrid model.

I doubt that researchers working in the military side of these labs looking to weaponize things are writing grants with Claude.

I really want to be charitable here, but in general, it seems that they stopped people writing grants and reports for vaccine and therapeutics research and are claiming it as "possible efforts to build biological weapons."

The one case where Claude was used to do something interesting and were stopped is fairly upsetting to read, at least for me.

     > In our fourth case study, a researcher used Claude to develop an atlas of venom toxin peptides from multiple venomous animal lineages. They then further developed this into a generative pipeline that optimized toxin characteristics. The program had an explicit therapeutic goal: the development of new analgesics (pain killers), antidepressants, and other therapeutic molecules. However, the atlas contained scaffolds for both analgesic and paralytic targets: it could, therefore, be used to generate both novel therapeutic or harmful compounds. The latter are derived from toxins that are export-controlled under the Australia Group common control list due to their dual-use potential as incapacitating agents. The researchers themselves showed awareness of the dual-use nature of their work, citing journal articles that referred to the dual-use nature of protein design. Moreover, international compliance assessments for this location raise concerns about the specific class of toxins that the researcher pursued and specifically the use of AI/ML for bioweapons applications in the context of this class of toxins. In this case, we learned from information shared with Claude that the researcher’s outputs also were part of a state-supported research program. This account was banned in May 2026 for unsupported region evasion.
Ozempic was isolated from Gila monster vneom. Since its success there has been interest in finding other peptides that are breakthroughs. So researchers around the world are looking for similarly beneficial compounds in different venom species and families.

Anthropic says so itself,

"The program had an explicit therapeutic goal: the development of new analgesics (pain killers), antidepressants, and other therapeutic molecules"

and that it was a "[..]state-supported research program"

Who exactly is using venom from snakes as a weapon when... nerve agents like sarin, VX, novichok etc exist and can get the job done for less fuss and muss?

They stopped the development of new painkillers and antidepressants.

Are you feeling safer knowing that researchers can't use Claude to write grants and progress reports? Or make new painkillers?

Again, trying really hard to be charitable here. Because from what I remember, one of the motivations behind the founding of OpenAI and Anthropic was ending disease.

This seems to be anything but.

camkego 2 hours ago|
If Anthropic really wants to make a statement they could independently pace their own model development, and ask others to make the same pledge.

Somehow, I suspect that won't happen.

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