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Posted by u1hcw9nx 7 hours ago

Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher(www.vals.ai)
571 points | 249 commentspage 2
danamit 2 hours ago|
LLMs feel to me like the monkeys from the infinite monkey theorem, except that they are on the finite side. It writes gibberish for me, and for others it writes Shakespeare.

Obviously this is just survivorship bias/p-hacking/insert-other-buzzword but can't help but anthropomorphize it, it is hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that the same person who cannot produce code without 2 unrelated bugs both not present does this for someone else.

Imagine a math teacher struggling to understand what he is teaching casually solving a millennium problem, then go back to not understanding what he is teaching, doesn't happen in our world.

I am not confused by any of this, I am just trying to communicate an idea.

azinman2 4 hours ago||
Let’s say it gets to the point that we reach superintelligence. All previous puzzles can be solved. But should they? Once you solve them, it’s done. What’s left? And where’s the fun and humanity?

The Olympics exist because we want to see human skill, even though jet planes exist.

meken 4 hours ago||
No one is saying you can’t solve puzzles that have already been solved. If you love solving puzzles, then whether it has been solved doesn’t seem all that important.
greyw 2 hours ago|||
Indeed no one forces you to look up the solution.
yieldcrv 4 hours ago||
I disagree, but if you and others choose to untether from our plain for these reasons, I’m totally fine representing the human traits that remain here and pass my remain traits on
derektank 1 hour ago||
So, does anyone have any intuition for how concerned we should be that one of leading foundation models will be able to successfully attack the gold standard symmetric and public key encryption algorithms (AES, ChaCha, ECDH, Kyber, etc.) in the next few years? As a consumer of crypto that doesn’t understand the mathematics deeply, I’m getting kind of nervous that we’re going to wake up one day to find that the backbone of TLS has been shattered.
fpgaminer 8 minutes ago||
It's unlikely that any of the modern cryptographic primitives will break over night.

First, modern encryption isn't susceptible to "this one weird trick!" like the early days. ChaCha isn't even a cipher. It's a key stretcher. Which means, even if you broke the math behind ChaCha, its inherent complexity means its still widely dispersing the original key across the cipherstream. There just won't ever be enough key material recovered per cipherstream block to be a concern for anybody.

Take a strong password, encrypt all of your emails over your whole life with it, and I'll bet hard cash no break of ChaCha will ever recover that password.

I have zero concern for modern encryption being broken in any meaningful way.

Public key crypto on the other hand, that's _ripe_ for breaking. Most all of it is built on assumed "hard" math. AI could easily break that, and I expect it to. And public key crypto is all used in very transparent algorithms that, once the math breaks, fully expose themselves. So record HTTPS traffic today, crack the public key crypto later, and you can decrypt them easily.

That said, I would expect a break on public key math to occur _steadily_. i.e. an AI might find a solution to the hard math, but the solution itself will be intractable in practice. Then maybe next year's AI reduces the complexity of the solution, so maybe a supercomputer could factor ten keys a year. The year after that you get a million keys cracked per year. And so forth. Nothing close to overnight.

Meanwhile, if we have AI that is capable enough to crack that math, we also have AI capable enough to both invent better math and rapidly deploy that latest HTTPS and such globally.

SV_BubbleTime 1 hour ago||
The entire point of having multiple ciphers is that some will break.

Did the world end with any previous one breaking?

It’s incredible and awesome if AES GCM has a flaw found with an AI now, Chacha20 could be a direct or nearly-direct replacement.

The sooner a cipher breaks, the better.

derektank 1 hour ago||
Sure, but in an era where major unsolved mathematics problems start getting knocked out one by one, what if attacks for all of them are identified in the space of a couple of years?

I don’t doubt that we could come up with new crypto algorithms equally as fast, but how do you trust that they are resilient (or even just implemented correctly) without an extended vetting period?

aogaili 6 hours ago||
It is cool. But how do we know that nobody solved that problem before and it was somewhere in the training data? some blog, or some book or whatever?
altmanaltman 6 hours ago||
Its a bit sus since there doesn't really seem to be much discourse on this either. Like okay, it solved the puzzle but the puzzle was just a key cipher with plain text? And how is this verified or even matter in terms of what it reveals? Seems more like a marketing fun post than anything susbtantial.

They published this on 31 aug and nobody in that community cared and no news covered how this 300+ years mystery was solved?

sidewndr46 6 hours ago||
Conversely, the cipher could be so boring that no one in any academic circle bothered publishing on it.
heaney-555 6 hours ago||
Is this going to be the cope every time this happens?
aogaili 6 hours ago||
Haha - I'm just seriously wondering, how can anyone tell at this point?
razster 6 hours ago||
Right, with the amount of data these models are trained on, somewhere someone may have solved it and it was in some obscure text/page no one looked at or care about. We'll probably never know.
ares623 5 hours ago||
It's like Google without Ad/SEO incentives. All it took was trillions of dollars of investment.
gdevenyi 6 hours ago||
Anyone pointed it at the Voynich manuscript?
veqq 5 hours ago||
Thousands. Every day a few AI "solutions" are spammed to the relevant forums
Diti 6 hours ago|||
And at the Noita eyes. No good either.
Avicebron 6 hours ago||
yes.
soks86 2 hours ago||
This appears to be proof that the guy who wrote the cipher, Sir Thomas Urquhart, did in fact laugh himself to death as legend has it.

He wrote the cipher, and then, upon hearing Charles II was Restored to the throne he laughed until he died. The cipher reads, "O GOD UPHOLD KING CHARLES THE SECOND AND MAKE HIM THE SUPREME RULER OF THIS LAND" and so he was laughing because he just made an excellent joke that he can't tell anyone about until someone figures it out.

Someone needs to add this to Wikipedia. It will be necessary to first convince an academic to make the claim so there's a reasonable citation.

Oh, and haha. It was a nice one, Thomas.

sm-silversight 2 hours ago|
What's the joke, IDGI
Pannoniae 6 minutes ago||
The cipher wishes Charles II was the king again. The Stuart Restoration did happen in 1660 in fact, restoring Charles II to the throne. Legend has it he died of laughter, which checks out with the cipher because he was laughing how his wish got fulfilled yet he could tell no one about it yet :P
johnnyApplePRNG 5 hours ago||
Definitely a much better target to show the power of an AI LLM imho (as opposed to stealing from starving mathematicians).
senordevnyc 4 hours ago|
You mean the NYU professor and the Anthropic researcher? Somehow I doubt either of them are starving.
ChaoStatiX 2 hours ago||
While it is deeply encouraging to see AI helping humanity solve complex puzzles, it won't be long before AI becomes advanced enough to produce proofs where we know the answers are correct, but can no longer fully comprehend the reasoning and principles behind them.
dakolli 2 hours ago|
ya'll are getting nerd sniped hard. This is all marketing and doesn't translate to the real world what so ever. This is getting so tiring, I really hate this website.
matthova 3 hours ago||
I know this is a feat of AI engineering, but given the end result all I can think of when reading this is the scene from “a Christmas story“ where the kid decodes “be sure to drink your ovaltine”
Aboutplants 5 hours ago|
Time to find out who Satoshi Nakamoto is
andai 3 hours ago||
I read a few years back a report that the DoD had unmasked him via stylometry (i.e. matched his writing style to forum posts).
nowittyusername 5 hours ago|||
IMO its https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist...
Aboutplants 3 hours ago|||
“Finney died in Phoenix, Arizona, on August 28, 2014 as a result of complications of ALS, and was cryopreserved by the Alcor Life Extension Foundation.”

Hmm, this guy is going to be woken up in a few decades, either one of the richest people in the world or one of most disappointed.

kirubakaran 4 hours ago|||
imho it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo

Initials match too ;)

conorcleary 5 hours ago|||
Was it sourceforge or ThinkGeek that had the code snippets?
bell-cot 4 hours ago|||
That was a throw-away name, and "he" was fabricated as part of an Nvidia demand-stimulation black op.

You don't go from being an obscure video card outfit to the #1 most valuable company on the planet by being too hesitant or dim to really get creative.

brcmthrowaway 2 hours ago||
This is one of the best conspiracies I've ever heard...
derektank 2 hours ago|||
It does provide an explanation as to why Satoshi’s wallets have gone untouched (besides him being dead). $70B ain’t that much compared to a $5T market cap.
bell-cot 1 hour ago|||
"Conspiracy" requires an unlawful or wrongful purpose. Please assume that the op was run from a jurisdiction where using a pseudonym on the internet was not illegal, and various sorts of influencer and meme marketing were well-accepted practices.

Really, compared to an animated tiger telling kids that sugar-laden Frosted Flakes(tm) are "Great!", Task Peppermint was positively benevolent.

brcmthrowaway 37 minutes ago|||
Do you really believe it?
cindyllm 6 minutes ago|||
[dead]
reducesuffering 4 hours ago||
Already determined, but yes frontier models will eventually identify them confidently
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