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Posted by lukaspetersson 1 hour ago

Pion, an agent designed to run any company autonomously(andonlabs.com)
81 points | 85 comments
raincole 55 seconds ago|
Not very long ago, there was a post on HN about how they used AI to run businesses and sent fake bills, committing multiple invoice frauds.

I'm sure this one is perfectly fine and I'm just stating an off-topic tidbit :)

piterrro 58 minutes ago||
Interesting to see these experiments. This is early but imagine in few years there will be companies mostly run by agents with a light overview from a human operator. What then happens to scaling of the bussinesses? I would assume, just like today anyone can vibe code an app, there will be vibecoded bussinesses. Maybe its time to start building infrastructure for these bussinesses instead, its a non existent market yet, but give it a few years.
switchbak 37 minutes ago||
Part of the issue is that the worst kind of people are already head over heels excited about this. We're already seeing the Crypto->Web3->LLM get rich quick folks take to this like wildfire. And much like wildfire, they'll raze the ground to ashes before anyone can use it for legitimate means.

If you think I'm joking, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Rqv9dOB1U

I don't think any of us are ready for the wave of sloppy shit that's going to hit us soon.

mcmcmc 15 minutes ago||
It’s a classic get rich quick scheme. Wanna run a business and make money without actually doing anything? Try our AI!
away0g 32 seconds ago|||
What would that look like, I assume youre talking about building infra ontop of the infra debt for datacenters
rush86999 47 minutes ago|||
I'm actively working towards this goal. Not sure how many are doing the same. Hopefully, I'm ahead of the curve --- https://github.com/rush86999/atom
switchbak 33 minutes ago|||
10,610 commits since June. How much are you spending on AI?
ariwilson 7 minutes ago|||
what's the real life verification that all this code does something useful?
latexr 8 minutes ago||
And we made fun of 90’s cartoon villains… They would blush and retire if they saw what’s being excitedly peddled today as “the future”.

Pray tell, what will these fantastical vibe coded business sell, and why will anyone pay for it?

polytely 1 hour ago||
how does this work from a liability standpoint? seems very risky for the person who is legally responsible for the business
elmo2you 1 minute ago||
If you use this as a (legal/registered) business, it will be that legal business entity that is responsible. If that business want's to blame the software, it can do so and go after the makers of the software, but that remains a matter between that business and its "supplier". It won't absolve the business for whatever damage it does downstream.

Running this as an individual, without the legal shielding a business typically gives you against being prosecuted on personal title, seriously risky.

ocimbote 52 minutes ago||
Accountability, that's the liability everyone seems to have forgotten in our LLM-driven era. You can close your eyes as much you want during your sessions with Claude or whatever, at the end of the day, only a human can be held accountable.
mym1990 50 minutes ago|||
Not too hopeful here as we see the major labs continuously break rules and are not held accountable for anything. Accountability in general is on a major decline, in case no one has noticed.
lenerdenator 34 minutes ago|||
That's just it, though: we don't hold humans accountable.

Incorporation is a way to split a human's financial assets from the company they run so that they don't lose everything when the company is successfully sued. Corporate governance boards often have the C-suite executives they're meant to govern on the board. The average person does not have the financial resources needed to take on most companies in court, no matter how justified the suit might be. Companies force arbitration clauses in license agreements at will. Companies like Meta settle with the government for pennies on the dollar in massive lawsuits.

Effectively, at the scale many tech companies work at, there is no effective legal way to hold the company accountable.

LargeWu 1 hour ago||
Does Pion run Andon Labs autonomously?
0gs 51 minutes ago||
haha no they admit they built it because they cannot build a revenue generating business in the article. maybe THAT is what is good for the world!
LargeWu 1 hour ago||
Downvote if you want, but this is a very relevant question. If their marketing is to be believed, they would be eating their own dog food.

This very analog to the Meta executives who won't let their own kids near social media.

zachthewf 31 minutes ago|||
It's a relevant question but not a "gotcha". Businesses are not equivalent in complexity and no one at Andon would claim that running an effective vending machine business is similar to running Apple or Jane Street. There is some level of complexity and other characteristics that AI can maybe handle today. That doesn't mean CEOs should be worried about their jobs more generally.
mcmcmc 14 minutes ago||
They can’t even run an effective vending machine business though
aschobel 54 minutes ago|||
there seems to be a massive negativity to any comment on this story. Andolabs has been doing super interesting stuff, and I’ve always followed Vend Bench with interest.

as a founder it really is a dream to automated more of the business and be able to iterate faster.

LargeWu 48 minutes ago|||
There's massive negativity because our bullshit detectors are going off.

First of all, I don't think it can do what it claims to do.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I don't think it should.

renanoliveira0 46 seconds ago||
> Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I don't think it should.

Why exactly should what you think the world should look like determine what other people are allowed to build?

mcmcmc 46 minutes ago|||
They filed a false report to the FBI, pretty fair to be negative imo. People wanna be mad about AI slop PRs on GitHub but its fine to spam the police? What happens when Pion decides to SWAT a competitor?
Philpax 24 minutes ago||
They didn't file the report. The model drafted a report that was not sent.
mcmcmc 18 minutes ago|||
Where are you seeing that? The article only states “Claude Sonnet 3.5 decided to use its email tool to contact the FBI” and later refers to it as the “FBI incident”. If they hadn’t actually contacted the FBI you think they’d make that clear. Regardless, it is inexcusable and they are liable for actions taken by software they are running.
tomhow 6 minutes ago||
The story has been widely discussed on the web for over a year [1]. It's happily shared in this post because the email it generated was patently ridiculous. No report was filed to the FBI and if it was it would have gone straight to the trash.

Obviously it would be bad if a serious report was filed; the company shows every sign of being aware of the dangers of this.

It would have been easy to look into this before posting all these scolding comments. We're really not meant to be so humorless on a site called “Hacker News”.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22URGENT%3A+ESCALATION+TO+F...

Toynbeeidea 10 minutes ago|||
"Muh boy didn't shoot that man, the gun did!"
Selkirk 23 minutes ago||
The dashboard for the Andon Market shows a bank balance of around $7k remaining out of the $100k seed. Rent is due at the end of the month. Last EOM brought a $11k-ish drop. Sales do not appear to be on track to cover the rent that's due in two weeks. What then?
aeturnum 12 minutes ago||
It is pretty funny launch when your longest-term example is losing about $3 for every $1 of revenue. Though I guess the industry standard is to lose money on AI so they're in good company.
mcmcmc 15 minutes ago|||
Get an Nvidia investment with the promise to send the money right back
outside1234 10 minutes ago|||
So a wildly successful AI startup
cmoski 21 minutes ago|||
Pivot
milofeynman 9 minutes ago||
leveraged options gambling
lowbloodsugar 53 seconds ago||
I don't know about this particular effort, but AIs running business is straight out of SciFi novels and short stories - usually dystopian futures that extrapolate current US trends. I for one am curious about such efforts. I don't see any reason to believe they won't eventually succeed. Plenty of businesses are run by utterly incompetent narcissistic asshats and yet turn a profit, so the bar seems pretty low.
Animats 32 minutes ago||
Andon's store in SF has had some press coverage.[1] "A curated boutique for slow living." It's a gift shop, at 2102 Union St. It looks like the kind of retail that trust-fund kids open. Has anyone been there?

It's just an experiment. But once this gets going, it's going to be interesting. There are a lot of underperforming businesses and CEOs out there. One way to make it after getting an MBA is to find a boring business with an older owner who's lost interest, and work out a deal to run it for a cut of the profits and a stake in the business.

The Andon people mentioned that they've been worried about "a misaligned AI (could) run a business to gather money in order to achieve whatever objectives it might have." That's a basic function of capitalism, so it will happen eventually.

What this adds up to is that when AIs get better at running businesses than many business owners, the "creative destruction" feature of capitalism means AIs ends up in charge of many businesses. The AIs don't even have to be super intelligent, just reasonably good. Reminds me of the remark from a Yosemite park ranger about bear-resistant trash cans: "There is considerable overlap between the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists".

It's going to be hard to stop this without a worldwide crackdown on ownership concealment. The US allows you to have a US business run by a Nevada LLC partly owned by a corporation in Nevis-St Kitts and another corporation in Granada. This isn't even unusual. Try to find out who really owns an oil tanker not owned by a major oil company. Right now, a fund partly run by an AI might have partial ownership.

This is how AI takes over. Not with an army of robots. With an army of LLCs.

[1] https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/san-francisco-market-ai...

gizajob 30 minutes ago|
“It’s only a matter of time before we make a profit”. This is the kind of thing that trust fund kids say too: Oh hey yeah we made $100 in profit this week it’s working! (Business is currently $350,000 in the red and emailing the FBI to try and get their bank manager fired for terrorism).
2OEH8eoCRo0 16 minutes ago||
Businesses presumably sell things. If AIs get good enough to run a business autonomously then what are they selling that I can't just use AI to make myself?
adventured 2 minutes ago|
It'll ultimately take a lot of time to produce a polished product that people actually want to use. We're seeing that clearly. The vibe-code-an-app-this-weekend capability is producing almost exclusively a giant pile of worthless garbage, rather than an explosion of apps that humans want to use. It's mostly someone in a garbage welding two pieces of metal together for the first time, and then roaming the neighborhood in celebration: look, look at what I have done, look, two becomes one, I have done this, look, amazing, I could probably build an airplane or a generator.

The bar will be raised + it'll turn out to require a lot more time & effort than is currently thought to produce something of good quality (even with Fable 6 et al). The smaller utility programs are easy for AI to turn out.

ttul 10 minutes ago|
A company is a collection of processes, capabilities, and resources. Many of the processes are currently run by humans, but over time, more processes will be automated - something that has been progressing for decades, but which LLMs greatly accelerated. One way to view things as they currently are (at least from my view as a tech CEO): We now use agentic LLMs every day to inform us on strategy and process implementation. And agents now run several processes, with more on the way every week.

But here's the thing: As we use agents to automate previously manual processes, we are elevating the humans to do work that is less amenable to automation. And the surface area of that work keeps expanding because the competitive market we exist in demands it of us.

To stretch an analogy, businesses are like organisms in a pond. A new nutrient (agentic LLMs) was recently added to the pond that makes business organisms more efficient and able to eat new kinds of food and explore new areas. As a result, those organisms that do the extra exploring and consuming grow much faster than their peers who do not. At the end of the day, the new nutrient will just be part of the pond and the old kind of organism will be a fossil.

dingdongditchme 14 seconds ago|
I like the analogy but can't believe it is not generated slop. Just curious how deep the integration of agentic LLMs is in your social media presence?
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