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Posted by johnjwang 1 day ago

The engineering behind the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve(johnjwang.com)
200 points | 77 commentspage 2
metrix 10 hours ago|
What do they do with the brine when they fill it back up with oil?

And do they use fresh water?

cyberax 8 hours ago||
One thing about salt domes: they almost by definition are surrounded by very low-permeability dry soils. Because otherwise they would have dissolved long ago!

And a related way to use salt domes is for natural gas storage.

tgsovlerkhgsel 7 hours ago||
Another related way is to store nuclear waste. The properties (as described in this article, impermeable/self sealing etc.) sound great until the reality that water dissolves salt comes knocking and further confronts you with the reality that salty brine corrodes nuclear waste barrels...
CamperBob2 8 hours ago||
And even helium, which is famous for its ability to leak out of almost any container you put it in.

The US formerly maintained a National Helium Reserve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve), in fact, until we decided that a helium reserve wasn't all that useful or important.

carefree-bob 8 hours ago||
US has some of the world's largest natural gas deposits, and is a major producer of helium, so it makes less sense to have a strategic helium reserve. Even the SPR was created in the aftermath of the last middle east oil crisis, back when the US was a major net importer of oil, and many people have been saying we should scrap the SPR, as no major oil producer has an SPR.

The problem with the SPR is that it is used to manipulate prices, which was why Biden on the one hand cut oil leases and reduced domestic oil production, but then did major SPR drawdowns before the election to hide the realities of these policies. Now Trump is playing the same game, sanctioning oil producers and creating wars in the middle east, but using the SPR to hide the effects of these policies until after the midterm.

In both cases, we'd probably be better off without an SPR, so all of these actions against oil production would be immediately felt at the pump before the election and voters could respond quickly. It's just too tempting to have this tool to manipulate oil prices that incumbents can use before elections.

qlte 4 hours ago||
Huh? The oil price shock in 2022 and resulting SPR drawdown had nothing to do with oil leases. Prices almost doubled worldwide in the span of a week after Russia invaded Ukraine. Look at any chart of petroleum products and it's clearly visible as a huge, almost vertical line.

The explicit purpose of the SPR is to function as a lever to smooth temporary supply shocks. The US increasing oil output by a few percent in either direction wouldn't have made any difference to global disruption of oil markets from a major exporter to Europe starting a war and then getting sanctioned.

ivraatiems 10 hours ago||
How long does the crude last uner these conditions? Refined oil products like gas have pretty limited shelf lives (I think 6-12 months for gas).
aqfamnzc 10 hours ago||
Under ideal conditions - about 200 million years at least. In the salt, I'm not sure.
nostrademons 7 hours ago||
In the salt it's pretty similar. The salt caverns are basically just like the conditions where the early, easily-exploitable oil deposits ("gushers") were.
buckle8017 10 hours ago|||
well it's been underground in similar conditions for a couple dozen million years, so I think a while
thrawa8387336 9 hours ago||
One time I heard the limited shelf life is by design to avoid consumers hoarding. Diesel OTOH fares better
jaggederest 7 hours ago||
No, it's because gasoline is not a very thoroughly refined chemical, so it basically has a bunch of aromatic rings, benzene, and all sorts of monomers floating around, that rapidly (~year or two) turn into varnish and other polymerized nastiness when they oxidize and crosslink. I believe gasoline was originally a refinery byproduct that was used because it was so cheap as a fuel.

Diesel and other heavier fuels generally are much closer to aliphatic hydrocarbons (straight chains, not aromatic) and so are much more storable, because aliphatic hydrocarbons have much less opportunity for oxidation (they're like saturated fat, i.e. much more stable).

You can get polymerization inhibitors to put into gasoline if you want it for long term storage, with the caveat that they produce some nastiness at the bottom of tanks that you'll have to avoid when pumping it out, and I think they can also slightly reduce the octane rating.

treebeard901 4 hours ago||
I always thought the smartest thing to do since countries chose to accept fiat currency in exchange for oil was to create as many patroleum reserves as possible and print as much money to buy as much oil to store for later use as they would sell.
sh34r 2 hours ago|
It was a great plan, but all it took to foil it was one orange man in the Epstein files.
calmlynarczyk 8 hours ago||
This is a pretty popular topic this past month, huh?

https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-the-strategic-pet...

saghm 5 hours ago||
Probably because the oil itself has been getting pretty popular to, on account of the whole "bombing the people who control access to where we usually get it from" thing: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/oil-stocks-us-strate...
stephbook 2 hours ago||
Interesting that these articles don't mention China's storage capacity, which is bigger and more crucial these days.

Maybe China publishes less official knowledge?

redwood 9 hours ago||
Dumb question but why not pump it back into where it was pulled from.. or just leave it in a a reserve paid for by the gov
schainks 8 hours ago||
Brine is useful to sell to industry.

AIUI, salt caverns don’t like to be filled with brine because they become more susceptible to temperature changes of the earth and pressure from surrounding rock. Both can heat the cavern, which is bad for structural integrity.

Loudergood 8 hours ago||
This way the US Gov can be a buyer of last resort. Backdoor bailouts.
hiring_signals 8 hours ago||
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recursivegirth 9 hours ago|
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aesthesia 9 hours ago||
This isn't a political article?
recursivegirth 9 hours ago||
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schainks 9 hours ago|||
Politics and infrastructure are often intertwined, but the world you and I enjoy nonetheless relies on said infrastructure and how it works.

I don’t see anything political about the article? What made it political for you?

gordonhart 9 hours ago|||
It’s a fascinating engineering project that most people don’t know much about. That’s what HN is for!
jLaForest 9 hours ago||
You complain about politics on HN in the same breath that you implore moderators to stiffle discussion that offends your politics. Do you see the hypocrisy?