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Posted by rbanffy 4 days ago

AI chatbots are becoming experts at changing people's minds(www.science.org)
139 points | 103 commentspage 3
max__dev 4 days ago|
Rhetoric machine successfully practices oratory. More news at 11.

It's good to see this studied, but this should really be more obvious.

rbanffy 4 days ago|
We should always study what we think obvious, because we are often wrong.
max__dev 4 days ago||
I'm glad to see this studied. I'm just surprised at the reactions I'm seeing.
zasz 4 days ago||
Honestly the most surprising thing about this is that facts and evidence do work to persuade people.
ccvannorman 4 days ago||
Yeah the article makes it seem like "just use rationality and facts" is missing a huge part of the equation; I feel like it's common knowledge that this is not the gap in modern convincing. (and don't you dare try to use facts to persuade me otherwise!)

More likely in my opinion it's the context that matters here. If people know they're trying to be convinced of something and know they're talking to an AI, they may feel like they can trust (what they consider to be) an unbiased and rational AI. There's probably a fallacy associated with the assumption that an AI convincer is more rational and fact based, while it's more probable that the AI in the real world is, in fact, funded and trained by a think tank that wants you to vote against your own self-interests.

hardbass 1 day ago||
All the major public ai's I have seen seem to be much more neutral than almost any person I have seen. If that is thr bar, then it.is sky high.
hsnv 4 days ago|||
Facts and evidence always are at the core of all arguments, the persuasive thing. The problem with most people is who is speaking. If you are enemy, the things you say are bad.

I suspect that LLMs not being human allows people to not just anthropomorphise the robot, but they project themselves upon it. When someone speaks to the LLM, they're kind of, or actually just literally talking to themselves. But then something new! 'Themselves' suggests new information to themselves. And now without the scary / icky meat and blood human on the other side, said person accepts the argument on its own merits.

Of course, the concern now is arguments based on false or statistically hacked data.

tolugenius 4 days ago|||
I more wonder if it's pure facts and evidence can work, or facts presented in a certain light can work? I guess asking how mush is it the data is presented that's doing more work than the data itself.
pixl97 4 days ago|||
>or facts presented in a certain light can work

At least to me this is a given.

You can take the same set of factual information and give it to one person that studders, has poor presentation, and otherwise poor vocal cadence and people are going to have a hard time with it.

Now, if you took the same facts, maybe even the exact same paragraphs and gave it to Richard Feynman, even if you didn't know who he was, the presentation itself is likely to hook you.

dns_snek 4 days ago|||
Based on my own observations the presentation and appearance of legitimacy matters far more than the actual argument, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Anecdotally I've noticed a trend of far-right bots/trolls moving on from just spouting hatred and really lean into cherry picked and misrepresented statistics to give themselves an aura of credibility. That strategy seems moderately effective because the argument consists of verifiable facts even though it forms a faulty conclusion.

So all of this is to say that this is a double edged sword where malicious actors will have the advantage.

lapcat 4 days ago||
"Hackenburg found that models trained to become more persuasive also ended up being less truthful."

It sounds like the arguments were basically AI slop hallucinations.

Kirr 4 days ago||
The secret? "You're absolutely right!" Say this enough times and you can change anyone's mind, as Dale Carnegie noticed 90 years ago already.
saimiam 4 days ago|
So true.

My son wanted to wear his undies on the outside a la Captain Underpants and I tried war gaming this with him - hmm, so your undie on the outside is going to require another one inside your pants and we are out of fresh pairs etc etc. In the end, he gave up on the idea of mimicking Captain Underpants.

toasty228 4 days ago||
AI slop is the ultimate npc filter
cbg0 4 days ago|
Not really. People follow trends in all avenues of life and AI usage is just another trend; creating some LinkedIn slop post or some infographic may be something people just do for social proof.
toasty228 4 days ago||
That's a lot of words to describe npcs
theturtle 4 days ago||
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sick_of_slop 4 days ago||
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VCFundedGenYer 4 days ago|
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jansport123 4 days ago||
everyone to some extent uses 'authority' as a proxy for truth, it is impossible for an individual to know everything before making a determination as to it's truthfulness (Even the notion of an absolute truth is in the domain of philosophy). Even SV is full of smart people who get sucked into group think because they desperatly want to believe something and seek out authoritarian sources that confirm their beliefs. "Oh Karpathy said something about LLM's replacing all software engineers? Must be true even though i have no idea how an LLM works"
pixl97 4 days ago||
Human intelligence is powerful because we take some amazing shortcuts saving us a massive amount of time and energy allowing us to do what no other creature can.

Human intelligence is also powerful because when the assumptions we put into those shortcuts are incorrect things go terrifically wrong.

jansport123 4 days ago||
indeed, but i would say that is a property of all intelligence in a finite world. Even if you have the most brilliant computer, because we live in a finite world, it would also develop the need to take shortcuts to move forward.
2III7 4 days ago|||
Elon Musk likely has very high IQ yet he is swayed by idiotic views.
Chance-Device 4 days ago|||
I think Elon has motivations that most people do not have.
matthewdgreen 4 days ago|||
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cindyllm 4 days ago|||
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icantevenhold 4 days ago||
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majorchord 4 days ago|||
If you can't argue your position without attacking a person's character, you already lost the argument.
SketchySeaBeast 4 days ago|||
That would indicate that the original comment failed then, didn't it?
roarcher 4 days ago|||
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tacitusarc 4 days ago||||
Perfectly fine to disagree with someone but the personal attack is unnecessary
afavour 4 days ago|||
I think they're just explicitly stating what the OP implied. And I think it's a worthwhile thing to point out: IQ isn't the be all and end all and just because you're "high IQ" that doesn't mean you've above persuasion or something.
anon48293 4 days ago||
True, but susceptible in different manners. As for a source which appears “trustworthy”, such as an LLM spewing out data, low IQ are more susceptible as per this study

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325733310_The_Influ...

hannasanarion 4 days ago|||
And the original accusation that "only low IQ people" are influenced by the words that they read is not?

The remark is risible because it is an example of why it it false. Everyone is subject to influence by words, that's what words are for. Being "confidently incorrect" is also called being "mistaken", and everyone does it every day, including the commenter by the very act of saying it never happens.

It only takes a small modicum of thought to prove that the thesis is obviously completely false, yet it is stated with absolute sneering confidence and contempt.

By the commenter's logic, only someone with "low IQ" would believe their own words.

Chance-Device 4 days ago||
But your quote isn’t a quote from that post, you’ve made a straw man. What if what he says is true? What if less intelligent people are more inclined to believe those who seem intelligent, but without beging able to gauge their intelligence correctly? Or the same with authority figures, or simply agreeing with “what everyone knows”? All of these are heuristics we should expect when reasoning is difficult for a person.

These are also not the only ways that people can be misled about things, and susceptibility to them is likely not exclusively correlated to intelligence, but they might well be heuristics that LLMs can leverage effectively.

Also that correlation I mention likely can be quantified, but I doubt anyone is doing the research on it.

pixl97 4 days ago|||
>What if less intelligent people are more inclined to believe those who seem intelligent,

I'm going to assume the actual truth behind this is complex, varied, and social.

When I was younger I had moved from a school that slightly above average to one that was below average in grades. The area had a really strong cult of ignorance feeling and I saw a lot of different behaviors in people that reflect themselves in political patterns. People that embrace ignorance seem much less likely to follow people that outwardly signal intelligence, quite often the opposite happens and they outright reject them. Instead of intelligence they are much more apt to believe those that broadcast success.

This quite often leads to power seeking individuals "playing dumb" and bolstering their success signal. "Awe shucks, that guy that got top scores at Harvard is just like me who didn't graduate high school" would be a good analogy to frame it.

hannasanarion 4 days ago|||
> What if what he says is true?

You mean you don't independently know one way or the other?

So you are taking it on his authority?

Because it was stated with confidence?

According to him, you must be one of those low IQ people.

Does that help to see the irony here, and why the original claim is not only clearly wrong but inherently elitist and insulting towards its own intended audience?

The alternative, the world that all intelligent people must live in at all times accordinng to the comment, is epistemic solipsism, that everything is presumed false, everyone is lying or erroneous, because there is no guaranteed way a priori to separate true statements from false ones.

> I doubt anyone is doing the research on it.

Not only is there research on it, this is like Psych/Journalism/Philosophy/Law/Communication 101 stuff. There are textbooks on it written over a century ago. It is the topic that the field of "Social Psychology" was invented to study.

The dominant theory is the Elaboration Likelihood Model, which describes and predicts based on situations when a person is more likely to doubt a claimed statement of fact, taking into account past experience with the source, cultural norms, motivation, time, concentration/nondistraction, and domain knowledge.

There is also tons of research specifically on the impact of intelligence on susceptability to persuasion by authoritative tone, and the reality is the *opposite* of what was claimed: smarter people who enjoy deep thinking are more likely to believe falsehoods (Price & Stone, 2004), because they perceive the overconfidence as exciting new information to think about, just like you are doing now.

So congrats, by uncritically believing the guy who incorrectly said you were low IQ for believing him, you actually provided evidence that suggests you are high IQ, because science shows that gullibleness is a trait of high-IQ people.

You could also be right-wing authoritarian, that's the other thing that strongly predicts gullibleness but I'm gonna guess you're smart instead.

Chance-Device 4 days ago||
Jesus. That’s combative. Good luck with that.
hannasanarion 4 days ago||
Not trying to combat you, trying to combat the other guy, who is being elitist and condescending and also incorrect in very ironic ways.

I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote, or maybe I flubbed the communication in some ways because I was trying to be cooperative and complimentary towards you.

Edit: ok, you might object to me saying you're gullible, but the point I'm making is that that's not a bad thing and is actually evidence in favor of intelligence, the opposite of what the other guy was saying.

I'm gullible too. I'm also short, nearsighted, bad at communication, unable to bench over 90 lbs, and tend to spend way too much time researching fields irrelevant to my own work. Susceptibility to over-confidently incorrect messaging is a scientifically proven achilles heel of smart people. It's important for us to know that so that we can metacognitively account for it and hopefully avoid falling victim to it by way of scams, cults, and hallucinating AIs.

Chance-Device 4 days ago|||
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