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Posted by CameronBanga 4 days ago

Xcode 27.1 Beta Release Notes(developer.apple.com)
154 points | 116 commentspage 2
kadir68 2 days ago|
Bana iphone 18 ver
kadir68 2 days ago||
Bana iPhone 18 ver
khoury 4 days ago||
I'm just gonna ignore this thing and continue as if it never existed. Worked with Vision Pro that no body uses and will work with this.
devin 4 days ago||
I'm not fangirling over it, but comparing it to Vision Pro is ridiculous.
matsemann 4 days ago|||
But will you gain anything by building for it? Will you see noticeably more users or people choosing another alternative because you didn't specifically building the app for Duo? At least if it doesn't outright break.
wat10000 4 days ago|||
As a user, this attitude makes me sad.

As a professional programmer, it at least gratifies me to know this is the attitude I'm competing against.

matsemann 4 days ago||
Thanks for the backhanded compliment, very mature..

I'm not an iOS developer, never made an app at all, I asked because I'm curious. What is it really to gain?

wat10000 3 days ago||
I just happened across this video with Apple’s new CEO and how Apple does things: https://youtu.be/4pqF5KMHOr8

He talks about a Steve Jobs story where he moved a piece of furniture and notes that the back, which would be against the wall, was still finished as nicely as the front, even though you’d never see it day to day.

He compares this to Apple products being beautiful on the inside as well as the outside. Even the cheapest products are like this.

There’s another story going around about the new guy, from his early days working on an Apple display. He was inspecting a supplier and discovered that the screws in the back had 35 grooves on the head versus the 25 specified. He ended up arguing with the supplier and making them fix it. Not because the grooves were core to the product, but because it’s important to get things right.

In short, craftsmanship. Build things well. Take care of the details. Make your stuff beautiful even if only a few people will ever see it. Even if nobody will ever see it.

Sure, an app maker could say, the Duo will be a small percentage of our user base, who cares if our app looks like shit to them. And quite a few of them will, I’m sure. And people will notice that these apps look and work like garbage on some of their friends’ and families’ phones. And this attitude will not confine itself to this one thing. These same app makers will say, who cares if this button is a little clipped. Who cares if the screen flashes during launch. Who cares if it takes five seconds to launch. Will we lose a noticeable number of users?

And that’s how we end up with legions of apps that are hot trash. Many of them will do fine despite that. My health insurance’s app is hot trash and they’re not losing me as a customer. But the company that makes the hardware and software their app runs on is way more successful than they are. Obviously a big part of that is down to what industry they’re in. But some of it is because Apple finishes the back of their furniture.

matsemann 3 days ago||
But you're kinda proving my point. I don't disagree with having pride in your work and obsessing over details, but as you say, it won't matter in the end. And so, many will probably find themselves disappointed with the Duo, as there is little reason for developers to care. And then many won't.
wat10000 3 days ago||
I’m saying it does matter in the end. Partly because small numbers still count, partly because the “who cares” attitude gets infectious and impacts everything. App makers aren’t just going to ignore the Duo while making everything else perfect. They’re going to ignore the Duo and ignore graphical glitches and have terrible launch time and terrible accessibility and on and on. At the end of the day, they may have enough of a captive audience that they still make good money, but that’s not the same as it not mattering at all. A good app is a competitive advantage, even if the effect is just in the margins.

And my point is more about us as individuals. As a user I want better apps. As a developer I care about doing things well, which translates directly into career success.

cschep 4 days ago||||
I would get a little bit of joy if a duo user noticed the effort I put into making my app work well on their device. Why put effort into anything? Your take is bordering dangerously on cynicism. :)
matsemann 4 days ago||
No, it's based on pragmatism. Every feature is a cost/benefit tradeoff. You didn't answer the question: would it be worth it?
matwood 4 days ago||||
> But will you gain anything by building for it?

We're not talking about 0/1 here. There's making sure the app works and looks ok on the Duo and then there's building out Duo specific features. The works/looks ok is generally pretty easy with new devices. Just build with the new SDK and fix places where the app wasn't doing something likely already suggested by Apple. A big one will be safe areas which people often ignored except on the top and bottom.

echoangle 4 days ago||||
You could say this about every QoL feature though. That’s not a reason to not do it though, it adds up and at some point other apps that do bother to make their apps as good as possible will become more popular than yours.
busymom0 4 days ago||||
Duo users also likely have disposable income to spend on in app purchases, maybe click on ads to purchase things, and other monetization. So I do think it's worth building for it.
reaperducer 4 days ago||||
But will you gain anything by building for it?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Will you see noticeably more users or people choosing another alternative because you didn't specifically building the app for Duo?

I haven't done iOS development in a long time, but my understanding is that if your iPhone app is designed well and uses all of Apple's recommended methods, adjusting for different screen sizes and orientations is fairly easy.

If you decided to go cheap/easy/dumb from the outset, then you made your bed, and now you get to lie in it.

fragmede 4 days ago|||
Can two people use opposite sides while in tent mode? Because that makes for some fun in-person games.
iknowstuff 4 days ago||
Apparently the camera has to be active to render on both displays
adastra22 3 days ago||||
Yeah the Vision Pro is actually really nice, if expensive.
BiteCode_dev 4 days ago|||
It is exotic, and bring only a little to the table for a stiff price increase.
devin 4 days ago||
Not really. It's an iPad + iPhone. That's hardly exotic. Both of those product categories sell very well. People who own an iPad mini and an iPhone have every reason to consider this for the merged cost.
matwood 4 days ago||
Exactly. Maybe not v1, but the Duo will likely lead me to not buy another iPad.
ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago||
I use an iPad Mini every day (I’m on it, right now). I also have a big iPad Pro, that I never use.

It’s likely that I will end up getting a Duo, eventually. I’m not in a hurry. I’ll bet that there will be teething problems.

I suspect all my apps will run OK on Duos. I have been designing for flexible iOS screen dimensions since Day One (2012). It was a habit I already had, from MacOS development, and all my apps work in landscape mode (It’s shocking, how many apps you can break, simply by turning the phone 90 degrees). Looks like an open Duo is about the same dimensions as running an iOS app on Mac (by default—you can easily resize Mac iOS app windows).

I am interested in seeing if I can leverage running on inside and outside screens. That might be interesting (but I don’t know if that’s possible. They probably switch off the outer screen, when the device is open).

I’ll bet that Apple ships an Apple Pen Mini, for Duos.

whatever1 4 days ago|||
It is indeed a niche product. Its price reflects the sales expectations of Apple.

But its form factor has been validated for almost a decade now from other manufacturers. So iPhone Duo will do fine. It will not surpass a slab iPhone but fine.

Vision Pro was a completely new beast, the hardware was not there, the market was not there.

CharlesW 4 days ago|||
> It is indeed a niche product.

It's worth noting that "niche" in this case means ~10M in its first year, comparted to an estimated 250M Apple smartphone shipments in 2027. So far, Apple has sold ~600K Vision Pro in total.

Also, supporting Duo is not an enormous lift if you're already supporting resizable windows, as developers are required to do for OS 27.

fg137 4 days ago||||
The form factor of Vision Pro has also been validated for a decade from other manufacturers.

And that means nothing. Because other manufacturers are not doing well either.

whatever1 4 days ago||
Yeah the market had shown that anything bulkier/heavier than a pair of regular glasses is not acceptable. Not sure why apple released it unless it is a glorified dev kit that would allow devs imagine a use case for a product that is 10 years away.
adastra22 3 days ago||
That is what the AVP is. They’re pretty open about this at launch and since.
isatty 4 days ago||||
I know exactly one person who has a foldable phone and I live in sf. I’ve never even considered getting one and I like new tech.

I’m not doubting that there’s demand for it but I wonder who/where?

reaperducer 4 days ago|||
I’m not doubting that there’s demand for it but I wonder who/where?

I spend a lot of time in hospitals, and I see doctors with them.

That may also explain why Apple isn't too worried about the price.

matwood 4 days ago||||
> I know exactly one person who has a foldable phone and I live in sf.

If we're comparing anecdotes, when I lived in the states far from sf many tech people I knew had folding phones. They loved them and I was curious, but I like iOS.

MSKJ 4 days ago|||
All over China/Asia, anecdotal statistic
testing22321 4 days ago||||
> Its price reflects the sales expectations of Apple.

People famously said that of the first iPhone, expensive at the time.

Then about the $1k iPhone X.

Apple have made phones a fashion accessory and status symbol. I won’t be surprised if the Duo sells extreme well, even by iPhone standards.

selectodude 4 days ago||
My only concern is that they'll sell out so quickly for so long that I'll have to wait for the iPhone Duo Two-o because they won't be easy to get until like May 2027.
dozerly 4 days ago|||
The price, hardware, and market was not there for the Vision Pro. There was no reason to buy a VR headset that couldn’t play games.
busymom0 4 days ago|||
Developer here. Apple often rejects app submissions if the app doesn't look optimized for some iPhone device or iPad device. So won't be surprised if they reject new apps and updates for not being optimized for the Duo. This could be their way of getting developers to comply.
devin 4 days ago||
That seems like a tough road. They've never been able to enforce that iPhone app makers build an iPad-compatible version or vice versa, and this looks exactly like that scenario.
CharlesW 4 days ago||
It's mostly enforced, the only exception being apps with a legitimate iPhone-only hardware dependency.

iPhone apps must function on iPad in iPhone-compatibility mode, apps must support window resizability as of OS 27, and apps can't detect iPad and refuse to run. And I don't think this is new, but setting the target to iPhone-only doesn't prevent iPhone apps from running on iPad.

Razengan 4 days ago|||
I had the 1st-gen Vision Pro, and then sold it.

I really wanted to use it as my primary computing display, but as is almost always the case with Apple, the amazing hardware was hamstrung by the crippled OS.

Even just being able to use it as a generic display i.e. with a Nintendo Switch would have been amazing.

yieldcrv 4 days ago|||
taking the Apple strategy with the Apple ecosystem, genius
isodev 4 days ago||
It really feels quite irrelevant. Also, the amount of work to support this with zero support from Apple since WWDC is just absurd. And even if one does the work, Apple will just sherlock the cool features into their apps.
CharlesW 4 days ago||
> Also, the amount of work to support this with zero support from Apple since WWDC is just absurd.

Resources:

https://developer.apple.com/search/?q=iphone%20duo

Axiom: https://charleswiltgen.github.io/Axiom/ (my FOSS project, updated for iPhone Duo)

isodev 4 days ago||
What is your point? That they eventually released something? The simulator came out today... on Friday afternoon lol
CharlesW 4 days ago||
I don't understand what you mean by "eventually" when you can't even pre-order it yet.
nozzlegear 4 days ago|||
Why does it feel irrelevant? And what kind of support should Apple be providing beyond releasing Xcode and an iPhone Duo simulator?
isodev 4 days ago||
And when did Apple decide to grace us with tools to support the Duo? Yeah, 3 hours ago. This should've been out in June so they can also get the feedback about all the silly design choices the Duo brings (and the bugs in that simulator). Too bad I can't just send them an invoice for all the wasted time.
madeofpalk 4 days ago||
Honestly if they were really serious about this they would have released this back in December. Shame. Steve Jobs is rolling in his grave!!
inshard 4 days ago|
Waiting for my coding agent to have zero idea what I mean when I say build for iPhone duo (due to knowledge cutoffs in pre-training; happened when Liquid Glass came out previously).
bnc319 4 days ago|
I coincidentally asked Gemini a question about the iPhone Duo a few hours ago and, while it seemed to understand that it's a folding phone, it confidently hallucinated that in "tent" pose, there would be a display visible from both sides. In reality, only one side in this pose is the display, the other side is just back glass with the large cameras.
inshard 3 days ago||
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