Posted by nativeit 3 days ago
I have done it and know many people who have done so too. It's frustrating and slow, but if you figure out a system that works for you, you can do it.
You can pay for an online tutor which I found got me rather far. After like A2 they wont speak English with you anymore (if you ask em too).
You do not need to speak to progress, you can get really, really, really far without speaking much, if at all. You'll need to eventually speak of course to get through things like proper pronunciation and just general confidence, but most of my progress came from watching tv, anime, listening to audio books and reading books in the target language (German). I found Audio books by far got me the furthest just due to being able to listen to them on my commute or during sport rather easily but they were limiting in German due to their funny Präteritum case.
It's slow and frustrating but things like kindle and lang reactor help a lot. I am only at a point where I feel good about my languages skills after 4 years (2 of which I spent mucking about, and the 3rd was where I got serious).
And if it's low stakes, you can lie and say "no english" which works. But I've only done this a few times and felt kinda icky about doing it.
But, as someone who has now devoted a large portion of my life to becoming proficient at a second language, I do think there are benefits, even if they've never been proven. The most important of these, in my opinion, is just the social aspects of learning another language. You have to get out there and talk to people, and that's inherently healthy.
I do want to say that you hear loads of pessimism about whether or not it's possible a language after childhood, etc., but I'm here to tell you that not only is it possible, it's possible to do even if you suck at languages (as I do). The primary factor is motivation, and the second biggest factor is time. Find a language that you like, because you like the culture you'll be interacting with when you speak it. If you don't, you'll never find the impetus to keep going when it gets hard and boring.
[1] protip: drink coffee if you like it, and don't worry about it. Likewise, learn a language if you like it, not because some dumb article said it would make your neurons fluffier.
I talk to people every day in my 2nd language. They are generally delighted to do so.
Yes, some people are suspicious of me, depending on the context. But even then I can generally disarm it with body language etc, because I'm a skilled and empathetic human.
I also wonder if it is something that happens for women as well, or just men.
Mix into that a weekly lesson with italki from your home and you can learn any language at any age.
In addition it seems to be a good way to get rid of short video addiction. I don't use instagram or tiktok myself, but have a friend who did. Now she watches Dreaming Spanish instead. She is eight month in. Her husband just told me the whole family was flabbergasted when they where in Spain this summer and she answered in Spanish to a waiter in a restaurant.
My 10 year old daughter uses it, too. She likes to watch the Let's play videos and has watched the Stardew Valley series twice. So thats 66 hours x 2 = 130 hours watching Spanish videos. Her vocabulary is now a bit strange for a beginner, though. We recently walked through a garden and she was pointing out la regadera, la semilla, plantar algo.
I'm also old enough to remember when getting listening materials required going to the library for cassette tapes. Today, you can talk with a wide selection of native speakers, listen to essentially infinite audio and video content, and immerse yourself in a culture halfway around the world for the price of an internet connection.
I learned English with no Internet or smartphones, just school teachers, coursebooks and physical dictionaries. I wrote down new words from the dictionary into my lined notebook with a pen, solved the exercises from the book, translated texts by looking up words in the dictionary, searching for the page and the entry alphabetically. The coursebook came with an audio cassette. It was very much possible, but of course there are much more tools today. Spaced repetition software like Anki for vocabulary learning is a huge improvement I think.
I agree with you about the disadvantage of being a native English speaker, but mostly I think the real disadvantage is being an American, and never having a reason to learn another language (though that has changed in my lifetime with Spanish, and possibly Mandarin).
In any case, a lot of academic researchers claim that it’s impossible to learn a language to a native level as an adult, which may be true, but that claim has been twisted into “impossible to learn a second language” by a lot of others.
This is phrased ambiguously, but most Europeans only start learning foreign languages in school, so around age 6 or later. By that time you're past the "critical window" and you'll almost surely have a very recognizable accent and learning the language is very effortful and takes many years. It's still probably easier to learn when you're 7 than when you're 40, but it's not even close to language acquisition as a toddler.
You're also forgetting that school-based language instruction is not so great at all. Imagine a class of 30 students having a 45 minute English class twice a week, by a non-native teacher with a heavy accent. It's not a lot of learning, very little speaking, and most kids unsurprisingly don't learn to speak well from that. It's mostly about memorizing grammar tables and vocabulary for tests.
You need much more intensive paid courses or private instruction if you really want to be good at it, even as a teenager. Not strictly necessary but learning purely from public school is usually not as effective as you seem to think. Or you have to be an outlier in diligence and do a LOT of homework practice on your own, translating, reading, writing, listening to media etc. Video games can be a great motivator but it also gives a very lopsided skillset and won't easily get you to pass a B2 or C1 exam.
And yes, it's true. For Americans learning a foreign language is an exotic hobby or a requirement of some very rare foreign-associated jobs. For people whose native language isn't English, learning English is just part of the basics for professional work. It's around the same level in basicness as getting an undergrad degree. Certainly not something that every single person does, and there are jobs you can do without it, but white collar, professional knowledge work will require it.
In most European countries you also have to learn a second foreign language at school at some point, though not as many years as the first foreign language. This one is usually the language of a big nearby European country, so German, French, Italian or Spanish are popular. But just as it is for Americans, learning this second, non-English foreign language is much less motivating once you know English. Though economic motivations do exist, for example to learn German, especially when you live close to the DACH (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) countries and there are many economic ties.
I think Europeans, in general, are much more comfortable with the idea of just making due with whatever language is available, at whatever level, where as for Americans, speaking a foreign language is much more of an event, with more ego tied into it. The fear of failure is amplified, and that fear is a huge reason that more people don't try to learn.
Maybe I'm just seeing a self-selected group of Europeans who are already multi-lingual, and it's not childhood exposure at all, but my theory is that the normality of language learning in Europe is a causative factor.
This. You chat much less with people who are too shy to chat in English. Believe me, many Europeans don't like to speak foreign languages because they think they will seem stupid. It's not some deep difference between Americans and Europeans. The major difference is simply that there is much more pressure and incentive involved when your native language is not English.
Personally I suspect English has some great advantages. The main disadvantage is defaulting to superiority.
The natural disconnect between written and spoken English is tremendously helpful. Well educated English encourages copying sounds - pronouncing foreign names and places correctly. This is a huge leg up compared against some other cultures. Think sports stars having their foreign names pronounced correctly. People often know how to try and say Paris or Barcelona correctly. We naturally know that how something is spoken trumps how it is written.
English speakers often have the ability to hear sounds because there's so many wildly different English accents. Especially vowels (we natively use a wide range of vowel sounds). There are sounds English speakers struggle to hear, but I think we have an advantage over some other languages.
If you're the type of person that attempts to mimic accents, then you've often learnt how to say a huge range of vowels and consonants. And how to stretch them (Strine, some US accents) or shorten them.
Maybe if you are near the native speaking country, or potentially if there are significant numbers of immigrants.
But knowing Spanish adds nothing social within New Zealand.
I had a Spanish girlfriend when 30, which made learning Spanish rather incentivised, and I embedded overseas for many months to learn conversational Spanish.
However I rarely hang out with South American immigrants in New Zealand, and those I have met (say at the pub) often prefer to stick with English.
Knowing Spanish is fantastic when travelling - the months spent learning have led to way more enjoyment when subsequently travelling to South America or visiting friends in Spain. Spanish also helps a little in France, Italy, Portugal and Brazil.
I intend to spend a few months in South Korea so maybe I'll try and learn Korean (without a girlfriend). However I'm now older so I suspect it will be much much harder.
Unless you have large learning disorder, you can learn second language. It is not some kind of rare talent
I literally just ignored conjugation and spoke in infinitive for a while.
Yo comer pan. Tu comer pan. Ayer/mañana el comer pan. Etc...
Likewise not worrying about gender, articles etc. If you use the wrong el/la/lo/les/whatever, it almost never matters, whatsoever.
Likewise if you put words in the wrong order.
Everyone understands it all.
So, just focus on building vocab, fluidity and confidence. The tenses come in time.
I do agree, though, that etymology - or at least noticing similarities between languages - can be very useful. Spanish and English speakers already know thousands of words in each language just with some basic rules. -al is the same (metal). -tion becomes -cion (conversation, conversación). Etc...
I suspect that your struggles was that you were being evaluated on the wrong things...
I'd be curious to hear your experience and what you think of what I've said.
I wrote etymology when I meant morphology. Etymology is certainly useful to me and helps vocabulary stick, but I find morphology to be a useful building block that I need on the front-end of learning vocabulary. No curriculum I've found includes it.
Phonetic collisions were particularly difficult for me, as my early education intrinsically bound phonetics to the English alphabet in my mind, which made it very difficult for my memory to latch onto new associations that share Latin script. I think phonics are crucial, but I wish there was a good way to better steer the sound associations to morphemes instead of individual characters, so as to better make room for more than the one language you're trying to learn.
New point: I had already done some programming by the time I tried learning another language. My thought processes had already reshaped into a sort of compiler for all my language processing. The necessary precision of code extended into how I wrote, and that overinflated the importance of grammar into something I just couldn't see past before getting to the words themselves. I wanted the words that were useful to sentence structure ahead of all others so I could do something useful with the rest.
I expect this would all be pretty incomprehensible to most people.
It's postulated that my multilingual abilities helped, among other things.
I suspect an amount of the same in human language, where learning french if you know spanish is less lift than learning a tonal language like mandarin
similar results from (eg.) learning music can be found, the underlying pattern seems to be learning things that are very very new to you, and challenge the brain, benefits the brain
I mean if it were that similarity made it not useful then it would surely be that you should only learn languages that are significantly different from ones you already know, but that does not seem to be the case from the admittedly not very detailed article.
>I suspect an amount of the same in human language, where learning french if you know spanish is less lift than learning a tonal language like mandarin
right, but they don't say that.
Maybe it is learning things different to you. But perhaps it is stimulating the parts of the brain that do the most relating of complicated concepts to each other. In which case it is just learning a bunch of words and what they refer to and how to structure these words together to discourse on ideas.
One common thing that is used to keep people from losing abilities in Alzheimer's diagnosis is using complicated skills like knitting, drawing. That is to say practicing complicated skills you already have prevents deterioration, so it seems reasonable to assume learning complicated skills does the same.
In which case it ends up being not very amazing information, as that is what I would naturally assume to be the case.
Use it or lose it.
I think it probably exercises some of the same cognitive skills, but the vocabulary of a typical programming language is tiny.