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Posted by azhenley 16 hours ago

English: A vs. An(www.redblobgames.com)
260 points | 332 commentspage 5
steve_taylor 8 hours ago|
It really grinds my gears when someone says “an year”.
crossroadsguy 7 hours ago||
You just need to lend an ear.
namenotrequired 7 hours ago||
Who says this? I haven’t heard it once in my life
godblessamerica 3 hours ago||
impressed and curious
moritzwarhier 14 hours ago||
This is one of the examples where English is perfectly consistent.

edit: OK, the ("a") "nvidia employee" seems to provide a counterexample, but is it really about names? I think it's about repetition, "an Nvidia employee" just sounds strange due to the "en-en".

But yeah, maybe it is a rare exception, because "an n-gram" is probably standard.

I'm perfectly fine with applying the rule to all other proper names? E.g. "a Microsoft employee" or "an HSBC product".

The writeup lost me there, when it jumps to hard-codes lists using this example as justification. AI slop?

> The actual rule is not whether the written word starts with a vowel letter, but whether the spoken word starts with a vowel sound.

The only exemption I know about is emphasis by pause, it allows to use "a" before a vowel sound in some exceptional cases.

So the rest of the goal description is solely about how words are pronounced? I mean that the question whether to use "a" or "an", and wanting to define a function that decides this, is equivalent to aiming at a function that decides whether the pronunciation of a word starts with an audible consonant or vowel.

This is described on the site, I see now. But it jumps to data science and statistics before even stating the problem accurately?

I still don't know what kind if "exceptions" it talks about, because it already treats things like "an HN submission" as an "exception", when it clearly isn't one.

subarctic 10 hours ago||
Some people pronounce nvidia as nuhvidia others as envidia so when the writer puts "a" or "an" before it they're revealing how they pronounce it
SilasX 13 hours ago||
I avoid making exceptions to the rule, but in the vernacular, people definitely break from it! You'll see e.g. "an historic event", usually justified because the first syllable is weak and close enough to being vowel-started.

FWIW "an Nvida employee" sounds better than me an "a Nvidia employee" because the latter has two vowels with no consonant separating them ... and I don't get repetition there because the vowels are different.

subarctic 10 hours ago|||
An historic just sounds pretentious, sorry :p
SilasX 7 hours ago||
You don’t have to apologize, I don’t like it either.
kstrauser 13 hours ago||
Confession: Whenever I hear an American say "an historic...", pronouncing the "h", I roll my eyes at the pretense. That's the only word I think I've ever heard someone swap in "an" for "a" before a pronounced consonant.

Now, if they used the British-style "an 'istoric event", that's fine. In American we don't pronounce the "h" in "herb", so someone here saying "an herb garden" would follow the rule correctly and sound normal.

But "history" with the full "h"? To me it screams "this person memorizes without understanding", or at least "this person desperately wants to sound posh but fails". It's the verbal equivalent of wearing a polo shirt with a giant logo, imagining if a tiny one is fancy, then an enormous one must surely be exactly what rich people would wear.

fsckboy 8 hours ago||
thanks for the confession, you are simply guilty of ignorance. I on the other hand am guilty of thinking the English and the French both sound pretentious about pretty much everything: they are both always judging people.

here you go, some straight facts:

https://www.dailywritingtips.com/a-historic-vs-an-historic/

including "The Google Ngram Viewer provides an interesting look at the progress of “an historic” vs “a historic.” In 1800, “a historic” barely shows. It begins its rise in the 1820s. In 1869, “a historic” is neck and neck with “an historic.” The two travel along fairly close together until the First World War when “an historic” pulls ahead and dominates until 1938. After that, “a historic” becomes the clear winner, although “an historic” and “an historical” remain in use. Here are two recent examples of the use of “an historical” in the context of educated English..."

kstrauser 6 hours ago||
From your link:

> Style guides like The Chicago Manual of Style, The AP Stylebook, and The Penguin Writer’s Manual regard the following as correct in modern usage: “a historical event” “a historic event.”

If you don’t pronounce the h, “an” is the clear winner. Now that most people do in America, “a” is the obviously correct spelling.

bigstrat2003 10 hours ago||
I feel the same way about "an homage". The H is normally pronounced on "homage" - for example, you would not say "pay homage to" with the faux-French pronunciation. So you therefore would say "a homage". It sounds so pretentious when people pronounce it the other way.
vulcan01 9 hours ago|||
Words are often pronounced differently in English depending on whether they are being used in a noun or verb context.

e.g. attribute, increase, conduct

s3graham 9 hours ago|||
I think that's one regional. It'd be super weird to pronounce the h in homage in most of Canada ime.
nephihaha 14 hours ago||
I notice "an" is in decline in some forms of spoken English. I noticed this shift years ago. Some English speakers say "a (y)apple" rather than "an apple" or "a(y) orange" rather than "an orange". In some case the "y" sound is replaced by a glottal stop (a' apple, a' orange).

[Why is this getting voted down? Bizarre.]

subarctic 10 hours ago||
Some YouTubers always say a like the letter a (e.g. the vowel in "day")

I find it pretty annoying. A different YouTuber had a good video about it though https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4IJLyFAzYes&ra=m

isityettime 13 hours ago|||
I've also noticed this but it sounds kind of infantile to me. It's a common pronunciation that a lot of children make seemingly by mistake and then eventually stop doing. When adults do this it sounds wrong, but I admit I have heard it.
YoshiRulz 12 hours ago|||
a.k.a. "hard attack". There's a nice video on the subject by linguist Geoff Lindsey: https://youtu.be/nCe7Fj8-ZnQ
bethekidyouwant 14 hours ago||
No
nephihaha 14 hours ago||
Eh? I hear both of these on a regular basis. It is a phenomenon.
antonvs 13 hours ago||
It might be regional? I haven't noticed it in the northeastern US, or in the multinational company I work at, where I talk regularly with people from at least 10 countries.
nephihaha 4 hours ago||
I have heard it on YouTube videos and elsewhere. "A" plus a y sound, or glottal stop. People talking about "ay answer" or "a yanswer" rather than "an answer". This has not made it into the written language yet, although some people write "a answer" rather than "an answer" etc.
jonplackett 13 hours ago||
A while ago I made an algorithm to swap the gender in fairy stories.

(Genderswappedstories.com)

And I found another English weirdness trying to swap between his/him and her/hers.

Him always swaps to her

Eg it was him - it was her

But his can swap to her or hers

It is his -> it is hers

It is his thing -> it is her thing.

And her can also swap to him or his

It was her -> it was him

It was her thing -> it was his thing

And hers always swaps to his.

So hers and him are the only completely predictable - and they don’t even mean the same thing!

I had to write a very in-depth algorithm to work out the type of words surrounding the words - if they are nouns, adjectives etc - in each sentence to correctly guess the swaps. But even after that some were unpredictable due to word order keeping the important words apart. all I could do 100% reliably was to flag the ones that might be ambiguous to check. Of course now I could just get an LLM to check it!

Can anyone explain why this happens?

bradrn 12 hours ago||
> Can anyone explain why this happens?

Historically speaking, it seems to have been due to two independent coincidences:

• The falling together of object pronoun her and possessive her seems to date back to Old English, where the genitive and dative cases were both hire. I’m unsure how this originated, but they seem to be separate in Frisian (the closest relative of English) and were reconstructed as separate in Proto-Germanic, which suggests that it was due to regular sound change in the evolution of Old English.

• Later, it seems like the third person possessive pronouns were derived by adding ’s to the corresponding genitive forms (which ended up as the possessive determiners). So her became hers, but it had no effect on his, since that already ended with an ⟨s⟩.

Thus we end up with the paradigm of:

    |   | subject | object | poss pronoun | poss determiner |
    |---+---------+--------+--------------+-----------------|
    | M | he      | him    |             his                |
    | F | she     |       her             | hers            |
jonplackett 39 minutes ago||
Thank you!
pdonis 13 hours ago|||
Holdovers from showing the case (function in the sentence) of pronouns with inflection, which has mostly vanished from English, but not completely. The "mostly" just means we get extra confusion from different cases having ended up with the same form (as in the two different meanings of "her" below).

"It was him -> it was her" -- both are direct objects (at least as you're using them here--once upon a time the correct English would have been "it was he -> it was she", since the verb "to be" is not a transitive verb, but that seems to have gone out of fashion).

"It is his -> it is hers" -- both are possessives, but they're not directly modifying anything (they refer to "it", but the verb is in between).

"It is his thing -> it is her thing" -- both are possessives, but now they are functioning as direct modifiers of "thing", which is a different usage.

I don't know if there is a fully specified algorithm for determining these things, and even if you got one that worked in English, I don't think it would map very easily to any other language, because English is such a hodgepodge of things cherry picked from various languages over the centuries.

jonplackett 39 minutes ago||
Thank you!
kichimi 14 hours ago||
I've spent some time thinking about this before, and it provides a clue about the writers accent. For example:

"An 'H'", and "a 'H'" are both equally valid following this rule (by my interpretation), depending on how you pronounce the letter 'H'.

post-it 14 hours ago||
A/an herb, for example.
mc32 14 hours ago|||
/heitsh/ vs /eitsh/. I think it's mostly Irish with the former.
kelnos 14 hours ago|||
And Australian, I believe.
ajxs 14 hours ago||
I'm Australian, and I say 'A Hotel', and 'A Herb'. Until very recently, I'd never heard anyone ever say it differently.
subarctic 10 hours ago||
GP is talking about the name of the letter H like when you're saying the ABCs. How do you pronounce it?
nephihaha 14 hours ago|||
"I think it's mostly Irish with the former."

Actually, it's a shibboleth. It used to be said in Ireland that Roman Catholic called it "haitch" and Protestants called it "aitch". "Haitch" is to be found furth of Ireland though.

nephihaha 14 hours ago|||
Most English accents don't drop the "h" in herb, although American influence will change that.

But you can hear "an" used in phrases like "an hotel" or "an historic building", where the "h" is usually pronounced.

isityettime 13 hours ago||
Most Americans don't pronounce the "h" in "herb" or "herbal" afaict. We do usually pronounce it in people's names though, like "Herb".
nemonemo 14 hours ago||
Maybe this could be used to track how some spoken language changes over time in a region or across regions.
mococa 14 hours ago||
As a non speaker, I really hate this rule
habanany 14 hours ago|
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