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Posted by 1317 2 days ago

PDF Forgeries Are Surprisingly Rare (2022)(gwern.net)
55 points | 46 commentspage 2
55555 21 hours ago|
Offtopic but the damage caused to an entire generation by Gwern's nicotine article is truly astounding. Obviously he's not responsible for the actions of others and it was written with good intentions but wow.
3eb7988a1663 21 hours ago||
I have no sense of gwen's readership numbers, but I find it unlikely that one rather erudite blog has anything to do with global nicotine consumption. People have been smoking for centuries. The vaping industry had guerilla marketing campaigns to target college kids.

No rain drop thinks it is responsible for the flood, but I am hard-pressed to imagine a blog article greatly swayed hearts and minds.

dudisubekti 21 hours ago|||
https://gwern.net/nicotine

This one?

It seems to be listing the pros and cons of nicotine and is well-sourced...

What "damage" do you see caused by this article?

simoncion 19 hours ago||
Yeah, once you remove the hazards inherent in cigarette and/or cigar smoking from the discussion, the only solid objection I've heard to nictotine consumption is that it's probably more addictive than caffeine.

I understand why personal vaporizer use was demonized, but -goddamn- that's going to be a public health disaster only an order of magnitude or two smaller than when folks started demonizing nuclear power back in the mid 1900's.

mschuster91 19 hours ago||
> the only solid objection I've heard to nictotine consumption is that it's probably more addictive than caffeine.

s/probably/massively. You don't see ads and public health messages for quitting coffee, you don't see bans for coffee advertising, but you do see a whole lot of things aimed at reducing or quitting nicotine products.

Besides, nicotine withdrawal is utter hell. Caffeine withdrawal usually is solved by a night of good healthy sleep - most people drink coffee (or energy drinks) only because they are forced by circumstances to work against their chronotype.

lelanthran 18 hours ago|||
> You don't see ads and public health messages for quitting coffee, you don't see bans for coffee advertising,

You would if coffee has the same probability of causing cancer as smoking.

Being addictive on its own is rarely a reason to demonise a substance. The addictive substances that are demonised are always those that also have negative health effects, even in moderation (like smoking).

simoncion 18 hours ago|||
> You don't see ads and public health messages for quitting coffee, you don't see bans for coffee advertising...

That'd be because -unlike cigarette and cigar smoking- coffee doesn't create a substantially elevated risk of cancer.

Had we had the tech for portable personal nicotine vaporizers back in the 1600s [0] and retained it until today, I very strongly expect that -other than the "Drugs of all kinds are bad!" moralizers- you'd not see much of that sort of concern.

> Besides, nicotine withdrawal is utter hell.

Waaaay back when when I quit cold turkey after smoking for a couple of years I was very grouchy and irritable (and knew that a cigarette would fix it) for like a week. That was it. I've not tried nicotine vaporizers, but I'd be interested to see if -given similarly sized nicotine doses- quitting vaporized nicotine after a couple of years is as annoying as quitting cigarettes was.

> Caffeine withdrawal usually is solved by a night of good healthy sleep...

That tells me that you haven't gone through serious caffeine withdrawal. The effects from quitting caffeine cold turkey last for less time, but way more unpleasant than quitting cigarettes.

[0] ...or whenever it was that tobacco smoking started to become A Thing...

vablings 11 hours ago||
As an avid consumer of both nicotine and caffeine I can say a few things.

Caffeine is way worse for me, the days that I consume zero caffeine I pretty much always end up with a migrate and minor. If I don't use my vaporizer, I get mildly irritated by not having it around but no prominent physiological effects

simoncion 5 hours ago||
> ...I pretty much always end up with a migrate and minor.

Minor what?

And yeah, two things:

1) It's telling that -despite the fact that the closest store that I get my coffee and tea from also sells cigarettes (and that I'm so obviously old that they don't ask me for ID, so that minor inconvenience isn't a factor)- I've been able to quit nicotine, but never able to quit caffeine.

2) I can't even count the number of times I've consumed a mug of tea or coffee for no other reason than to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Cigarettes were never like that for me. Just like caffeine, I inevitably developed a tolerance... but working through nicotine withdrawal was annoying, rather than _painful_.

cenamus 21 hours ago|||
Are you talking about vapes?
mock-possum 19 hours ago|||
Really? I don’t see anything objectionable in the article - and ‘an entire generation??’ How do you figure?
DonHopkins 15 hours ago|||
An "entire generation", huh? So nobody was spared?

Can you be more specific about exactly which "entire generation" uniformly and mindlessly takes their suicidal marching orders from Gwern?

And how is it that he only damaged the entirity of ONE generation, sparing all the others?

From the overconfident emphatic incoherency of your accusation, it sounds more like you're addicted to cocaine than niccotine.

aaron695 20 hours ago||
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rickdeckard 18 hours ago||
> "And when you do find a PDF claiming something malicious, [..] it’s always a ‘new’ PDF, which is forthright about it being a new unpublished ‘white paper’ or somesuch, and doesn’t purport to be a published paper."

> "Whereas, if you were so epistemically careless with images on, say, Facebook, you would wind up with a folder stuffed full of lying images which have been Photoshopped, claimed to be things other than what they are, ‘deep faked’, etc"

Maybe because a paper is a comprehending medium, expecting the reader to understand its source and interpret the content on a more intellectual level, whereas effective images/videos are usually framed to be understood immediately.

i.e. if I want to convince people that lizard-people live among us and I want to manufacture proof, my demographic probably responds more to images with a lizard than a reinterpreted academic paper...

creatonez 20 hours ago||
> (Or better yet: upload it directly to Libgen/Sci-Hub and let everyone else redistribute it.)

Can this actually be done without an ISBN or DOI number?

gwern 20 hours ago|
Yes. Libgen/Sci-Hub have minimal metadata requirements. And they especially do not require ISBNs/DOIs because there are an incredible number of documents out there with neither one. It would be absurd to ban all pre-1970 books, and lots of journals to this day don't bother issuing DOIs.
pvaldes 6 hours ago||
Modify any extant PDF is surprisingly easy. Write in your favorite "something"-tex, modify at will, convert to pdf.

Most people just never understand how powerful can be TeX and fear this path, because it takes a long training and the investment in time is huge. But you don't need to master all the details to do simple text replacements or filling a form with your name and address. That part can be learned in a day, and is totally free.

bbor 19 hours ago||
Ok this one actually baffles me -- anyone have the energy to explain what I'm missing? The repeated concern about forged scientific papers doesn't really track, but that's what academic institutions are for, at least in part.

If someone were to share a preprint PDF that I don't believe, my instinct would be to double-check it against the institution associated with its publication. If it was never published then it's basically just a screenshot of a blog post.

Ohhh okay the opening makes more sense now. The blog above is publishing papers in form of blog posts as a protest against scientific publishing. I love the energy, but ruminating on how weird it is that so few people take advantage of the thing that you're weird for doing in the first place feels... obtuse?

TZubiri 21 hours ago||
>PDF forgery is striking because it’d be so easy to do: find a useful research paper, edit it in any of the many PDF utilities, upload anywhere, wait for people to copy it (as they do), then take down yours; now you have an authoritative peer-reviewed research paper floating around the Internet with no links to you, in the perfect crime. (Or better yet: upload it directly to Libgen/Sci-Hub and let everyone else redistribute it.)

Seen as (unsigned) PDFs are basically images of documents, it's wild to claim that there are no forgeries, anyone doing a good ole fake document, fake diploma, fake wire transfer, fake articles of incorporation, etc... is using a pdf for faking. A nigerian prince scam sending an attachment mentioning 15.000.000$ locked up in inheritance would constitute a PDF forgery.

eru 21 hours ago|
Gwern is talk about editing an existing pdf. Less so about creating one from scratch.

> There is plenty of incompetence, fraud, and malice online, often in PDFs… but only new PDFs. I can’t think of a single fraud accomplished by editing a real PDF & just uploading it for Google Scholar etc. or where I’ve been burned by even mislabeling.

DonHopkins 15 hours ago|
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