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Posted by nsavage 2 days ago

The senior engineer death spiral(sunilpai.dev)
255 points | 146 commentspage 2
atom_arranger 1 day ago|
Sometimes to look like a genius you have to look incompetent for a bit.

In a place operating with SCRUM you're often expected to be shipping things every sprint, and sometimes with a large and important piece of work the experimentation, and the building of the thing, doesn't fit in a sprint, and if you tried to ship incrementally you'd just be shipping junk.

So you're going to end up giving some standup updates that do not inspire confidence for a bit. "I tried this thing, didn't work out", "still working on X, tried another thing", etc.

It's possible at the end of it you figure it out, and the result justifies the time investment.

The spiral is friction with a system that disincentivizes taking on ambitious goals.

I wouldn't just blame the engineer for not shipping smaller things, being less ambitious, talking more instead of working, I'd blame the company culture for disincentivizing deep work and ambitious goals.

Obviously there's a limit to this. You do need to ship something useful eventually. It's possible you spend extra time and still fail to accomplish the thing you wanted. It might be damaging to your reputation. You win some you lose some.

With AI there's less time between having the idea to do something or try something, and it being done or ruled out, so I see this being less of an issue now. The main barrier is knowing what to do and describing it.

aleph_minus_one 1 day ago|
> In a place operating with SCRUM you're often expected to be shipping things every sprint

... or you don't care about these expectations, and give a big "f*ck you" to them.

ungreased0675 2 days ago||
I didn’t understand this because of the stream-of-consciousness delivery.
shrikant 1 day ago||
I call this (well, in my head) the Sam Altman Fellow Kids style.

It's clearly a deliberate affectation that they're putting on because other words are properly capitalise (COVID, PIP, I, his own name, etc.). The author's other posts are properly formatted so I assume this was a a stylistic choice they made to illustrate their point on it being stream-of-consciousness.

I just find it more annoying on tweets because they've clearly fought the phone keyboard to override autocaps just to sound down with their fellow kids.

verzali 1 day ago||
Maybe they wrote it on a laptop. Or even a desktop.
Pannoniae 1 day ago|||
TL;DR: You got promoted or you wanted to get promoted. You decide you want to make a bigger project to show ambition, advance your career and whatnot. You embark on making some grand project, disappearing from view. This often leads to you getting stuck with something, falling behind and various negative effects like getting a PIP or becoming depressed.

His prescription to avoid this is to keep checking in and show some progress on something every day so you don't lose touch.

(My analysis: I don't think this is particularly a senior engineer problem, to me it just reads like ADHD-coded problems with time and interests)

throwaway173738 1 day ago||
The real prescription to stopping this is to only commit to looking at the problem for a few days regardless of how much progress you’re making. And never take on open-ended tasks with no sunset date. A CTO had me take an open-ended dev project once and I learned that the lack of a time box made it really miserable.
nchmy 1 day ago|||
I concluded long ago that anyone who writes without capitalizing the first letter of their sentences is not worth paying attention to, due to some combination of hubris, delusion, etc...

Combined with the inner monologue stream of consciousness style, and it is certain that this article is devoid of insight

rpdillon 1 day ago|||
I kind of feel this way except I have a guy on my team that I actually really respect, that for some reason can't capitalize things. It's just one of those quirks I'm willing to work around because he's otherwise awesome.
nchmy 1 day ago||
What is he writing that doesn't get capitalized? Code comments or entire multi-hundred or thousand line issues, specs, etc? The context matters.

Moreover, the lack of capitals in this article is accentuated by the stream of consciousness writing style. It requires a very significant amount of effort to parse, so simply isn't worth it.

gradus_ad 1 day ago||||
The only letter capitalized is "I"... Telling
jolmg 1 day ago||
No, they also capitalize abbreviations like COVID and PIP.

I remember having a phase as a teen where I didn't capitalize the first letter of sentences because it just seemed redundant. Periods are there; why need another signal that another sentence has started? It was like a redundancy = bad phase.

spider-mario 1 day ago||
Somehow, that reminds me: when I was younger and started learning programming, I had a phase where I seemed to hate most optional whitespace that wasn’t indentation. So each line would be indented to the proper level, but the rest of the line would look like this:

    SDL_BlitSurface((player1?smallcross:smallcircle),NULL,screen,&curpos);
nchmy 1 day ago||
iTs aLl thE sAMe to ThE comPuTeR! /s

This is a perfect analogy. Just as we have coding standards, we have grammar and punctuation rules so that people can effectively communicate with each other.

Anyone who refuses to follow coding standards or punctuation rules is just an asshole. Obviously we relax them based on context - a comment here or text message are different from a blog post which is different from an academic paper. But surely publishing articles/essays on your blog, which you preusmably hope people will read, requires at least some minimal respect for language rules.

Evidently this person doesn't feel that way, so they have to accept (whether they do it consciously or not) that some people are just going to lint themselves away from reading it. Not worth the hassle.

jolmg 1 day ago||
It's their blog. They can write in 1337 if they want.
analog8374 1 day ago||||
i voice to text. in hopes of getting the thing to stop capitalizing every third word because it's somebody's trademark, i told it to stop autocapitalizing. So here i am. blame Google
rpdillon 1 day ago||
You probably need a better speech-to-text system then. I type 90% of my comments on HN with FUTO keyboard, which is a local speech to text engine, and it handles capitalization properly most of the time.

https://keyboard.futo.tech/

hollerith 1 day ago||||
I don't mind as long as the author follow the other rules, and this author does: he capitalizes the word "I" and proper nouns, e.g., "Sunil".
swiftcoder 1 day ago||
> proper nouns, e.g., "Sunil"

it's kind of rude not to capitalise people's names, regardless of ones' stylistic preferences

layer8 1 day ago||
I also consider it rude to not capitalize the start of sentences.
layer8 1 day ago|||
Indeed, it’s generally not worth the annoyance.
saulpw 1 day ago||
Yeah should have put it through an LLM to clean it up.
plexor-labs 1 day ago||
The single, most important leading indicator of your success will be who you’re having lunch with every day.

I wish that I could travel back in time and tell my 25-year-old self this information.

OnionBlender 1 day ago||
You created a new account just to post this twice?
orf 1 day ago||
Did you copy this from a LinkedIn motivational slop post?
kwertyoowiyop 1 day ago||
Please use capital letters when you write.
superxpro12 23 hours ago|
no
jacobgold 1 day ago||
I genuinely don't want to upset anyone, but as someone with 20+ years of engineering and management experience, I think it might help some people to hear what is most likely really going on here.

This is probably an example of the Peter principle:

The Peter principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to "a level of respective incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

There's a huge amount of title inflation going on in the industry. We're now seeing the "Principal Engineer" title being given to people with 3 years of professional experience.

Unfortunately, this is simply not enough time to be very good at all, no matter how much raw talent you have. It takes a decade of experience just to know how to manage yourself effectively, let alone mentor others and lead large projects.

hluska 1 day ago|
You don’t want to upset anyone but you shit all over a lot of careers in your post? Sure buddy…
jacobgold 1 day ago||
Most people won't be honest with you about these things because there's very little incentive. People tend to react defensively like you are here. But it might actually help someone reading this to know the truth.

Maybe it helps you to know that early in my career I was also sometimes promoted into roles that were beyond my abilities.

runamuck 21 hours ago||
> “oh, if I work harder, do a bigger thing, then I will be rewarded with promotions and what have you,” right?

Answer: No.

geoffbp 1 day ago||
If a senior isn’t doing what they feel is meaningful work - or not communicating what they’re focused on, isn’t that partially on their manager?

obviously, more senior ICs should be creating/defining/delivering their own work. But either way, alignment with director or TL seems like a good idea to reduce anxiety

BatchJob 1 day ago||
The scenario laid out is pretty dated. Most scrum shops would not permit this level of backstory anymore. Admittedly I have seen this happen in the old days but it wasnt usually very impactful. It was in places where people had too much time on their hands and not much supervision.

Also there isnt much above senior/lead engineer these days, there is no straight line career progression above that. You can try to get into architecture but thats mostly paperwork, or management which is mostly dealing with people.

If you want to call your own shots as an engineer the world is your oyster, start your own company and build it. There is not much worth "being in charge of" in corporate dev shops that I can see or would want to be a part of. Most of it is retread, make work including FAANG.

dpark 1 day ago||
> Most scrum shops would not permit this level of backstory anymore … not much supervision

If someone needs close supervision to ensure they don’t get stuck like this and spiral, they probably aren’t ready to be a senior engineer.

Viliam1234 1 day ago||
The agile sweatshops will give you as much supervision as they can regardless of whether you need it or not.
dpark 1 day ago||
I suspect a lot of management have been sold on scrum because they see it as a way to micromanage employees rather than manage change.
drTobiasFunke 1 day ago|||
After the initial prototype, starting your own company is mostly marketing, people management and more marketing. This “start your own company if you dont want to answer to anyone” is so romanticized that its comical. Its also completely inaccurate.
dpark 1 day ago||
“Start your own company” in this industry seems to generally mean “spend your time begging VCs for money”.
phendrenad2 1 day ago||
I think this is true. Positions beyond senior, if a company is large and technical enough to have them at all (Google, Netflix, etc.) are mostly about paying you more and putting more pressure on you to churn out more code, and more polished code, which adheres to the needs of 25 different stakeholders. You're just a senior plus more stress.
comrade1234 1 day ago||
My plan was to always "retire" to a comfy university job but I no longer feel that way - I still really enjoy what I do.
b112 1 day ago|
Walter White said the lab was still magic. It's the same being in the trenches.
gabrieledarrigo 21 hours ago|
> he was asking me how to do a 60 to 80-hour week

It's simple: just don't do it.

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