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Posted by tliltocatl 7 hours ago

Sherline Tools Is Going Out of Business(toolguyd.com)
156 points | 100 commentspage 2
mlhpdx 7 hours ago|
Wow, what a disappointment. I’ve found it funny over the years when people are shocked to hear me talking about machining, when they themselves have woodworking tools. Cutting metal, cutting wood, even cutting paper - all useful for making and fixing.

I earned an MSME without ever learning to actually make things, so once I could afford it I bought a Sherline CNC mill and taught myself to use it. I made many mistakes but got there. I used it just last week to make a wind gauge mounting bracket for a 70 year old sailboat.

I liked that it was made in the USA and (at the time, pre mainstream internet) had a great community to learn from.

I know there are other options still, but Sherline has a fond place in my heart for how easy they made it to get started.

Reddit_MLP2 6 hours ago|
I also think Sherline machines have good value. Were they the cheapest, no, but they actually worked really well in my experience for their size. I only have their manual lathe, but it was a MUCH higher quality machine than my larger 7x14 from china. It just feels like everything is either a race to the bottom, enshittification and/or both right now.
trentor 2 hours ago||
Sad but I have to say they just stood still for 20 years and tried catching up in the last 5 that never works out.
giantg2 6 hours ago||
I want a small lathe and mill. The prices are just too high to justify with my limited use. Instead, I use a 3D printer and I'm making a CNC router.
SoftTalker 6 hours ago|
You may have already ruled it out, but many communities have maker spaces where expensive equipment that might normally be out of reach is available on a shared basis. Some universities may also have ways to use their maker spaces on weekends or when classes are not in session.
giantg2 28 minutes ago||
I thought of that and may still go that route if I really need a precision metal part. But it's a drive and I can do most stuff with other tools. I could even 3D print a part, mold it, then cast it in metal if I need to.
technothrasher 6 hours ago||
This is too bad. I've got both their mill and their lathe, and they've been great for making replacement parts for antique clocks.
firesteelrain 6 hours ago||
How much is because of Chinese clones/stealing of IP thus making manufacturing in the US cost prohibitive?
SoftTalker 6 hours ago||
Most of it.
convolvatron 2 hours ago|||
no one bothered to clone Sherline. Cheap mini mills and lathes that were the same cost, but were made out of actual castings and used more standard tools totally undercut Sherline.
firesteelrain 2 hours ago||
That’s my point
applfanboysbgon 5 hours ago||
Sad to see racist yellow scare bogeyman stuff going on at every little thing. You really think Sherline had some amazing hobby lathe IP that was just so far intellectually beyond what an educational powerhouse of a country with 1.6 billion people could ever come up with?
firesteelrain 5 hours ago|||
Yes, I agree that China can copy Sherline’s IP and it’s a form of theft. An estimated 70-80% of the parts can probably be made in China. If you would like a breakdown I can provide it.

Sherline, for example, specifies spindle nose runout of 0.0005 inch or less and spindle end play around 0.0002 inch or less, using two 20-mm ball bearings with adjustable preload. That’s only about 13 µm runout. A Chinese factory can absolutely manufacture that.

Manufacturers such as SIEG took conventional lathe architecture and mass-produced it.

There is nothing original going on there lots of copying

mauvehaus 2 hours ago|||
If you can quote spindle runout, you know perfectly well that there's no meaningful IP in this market segment. That would have been achievable by any number of manufacturers a hundred years ago.

It's a pure manufacturing cost play to make something precise enough, rigid enough, and light enough[0] while being inexpensive enough for the market segment it's aimed at.

Is it a bummer that a US manufacturer went out of business trying to make money at that play? Yes. Is there anything nefarious going on with IP theft? Absolutely not.

[0] This is being sold to customers who don't hire riggers to move their machines.

firesteelrain 1 hour ago||
how does a small US manufacturer compete when a foreign producer can duplicate 70–80% of the functional product at a fraction of the cost?
pessimizer 1 hour ago||
They can't. But how is that unfair? It's literally a choice we made.

And it's the one thing that unites every mainstream politician against Trump - they can't agree on tons of stuff, other than that we definitely should not be using tariffs to defend local manufacturers against Chinese (or any other) imports. I've been assured that those jobs are "not coming back." Well, big surprise - they're also not going to stop disappearing.

firesteelrain 1 hour ago||
I agree some policy choices were made to get us in this situation. Biden largely left the first Trump era tariffs in place. The disagreements are on the broadness of them
lenkite 4 hours ago||||
But isn't this completely fine ? The US became an industrial powerhouse by doing the same. Even barred foreign inventors from obtaining parents in the US. The U.S. Patent Act of 1793 was explicitly structured to favor domestic industrial growth at the expense of foreign inventors. Provided total legal immunity within the U.S. for commercializing pirated ideas. Only when the US became #1, did international protection of its patents became a priority.

China merely followed the American approach towards industrial success.

firesteelrain 4 hours ago||
I don’t think it’s completely fine to steal others technologies and products no. There are ways to be competitive and in an ethical manner
ahartmetz 1 hour ago||
The idea that ideas can be stolen and that doing so is wrong is fairly new and somewhat "unnatural". So the ethics of "stealing ideas" are not entirely well-defined. I think the only thing that almost everyone agrees on is that the person who had an idea first (or at least popularized it) should get recognition for it.
firesteelrain 28 minutes ago||
Huh? Patent systems go back hundreds of years! Yes nobody owns the idea of the lathe. We need to get past that. But for centuries, societies have recognized that someone who spends time and money developing a particular invention or manufacturing process can have legit rights to it
lenkite 16 minutes ago||
Its more: "Do as we say, not as we do". Lots of traditional techniques were appropriated and patented by the West and your nation deliberately ignored patents during its industrialization phase. But when the East that threw off the shackles of colonialism does so, oh my god, it is theft.

"Steal to get ahead, but suppress others who steal after you are ahead"

pessimizer 1 hour ago|||
This isn't "clones/copying," but rather "Chinese people making things." It isn't like they're stealing our exclusive "lathe technology." They're just making lathes.

It's certainly destructive to local companies, but that's what tariffs are for. If you think we should be making lathes, then throw tariffs on countries that make them cheaper. If that just moves the pressure to a consumer who still can't afford local lathes, stop handing free money to stockholders and real estate owners and start handing it to people who buy things.

firesteelrain 49 minutes ago|||
This is all a bit of a strawman. Lathe technology as a concept isn’t being disputed as stolen. Tariffs don’t fix the copying problem. My point is the country in general has a policy of copying and stealing
contingencies 4 hours ago|||
I also found the GP ridiculous. China probably made more lathes this year than the US has had in its entire history. You can get a complete lathe chuck assembly for 25 bucks. A small casting for maybe double that. I bet you could build a functional system for 100 or less at a quantity of one, including logistics. And if you knew what you were doing and had a mill, hand tools or a 3D printer to start with, within 3 days. They do not need to steal anything, they already are the world's most knowledgeable nation regarding machining fundamentals, supply chain, design tradeoffs, and maintenance. They have more trained machinists than anyone. The notion Sherline had any unique IP or that China needed to copy them is laughable.
YZF 2 hours ago||
I worked for a North American company that moved manufacturing of precision industrial equipment to China to reduce costs circa 2006.

There was a lot of knowledge transferred and training as part of that. For what its worth we previously had trained our North American partners. China could definitely not make our equipment themselves at that point in time. We did retain some key technologies but most of it was moved over.

I don't see how anyone can deny that the Chinese got a lot of the know-how as part of the mass transfer of production to China. 90% of their manufacturing know-how is from the west.

If the point is that Sherline specifically today doesn't have any IP they might care about- sure. It's been copied/reverse engineered/"stolen" a long time ago. I don't know when the Chinese entered the hobbyist machining market but when they did I'm sure copying existing designs wasn't exactly a barrier, or stealing trade secrets, or ignoring patents.

kqr2 5 hours ago||
Mods: can we just link to the actual announcement instead of a blog: https://www.sherline.com/an-important-message-to-our-sherlin...
dyauspitr 2 hours ago||
I considered their manual mill when I first wanted to get into CNC but then realized that a manual mill makes no sense for anything really anymore. Anything short of a CNC is a waste of time.
WillAdams 1 hour ago|
There's a lot to be said for a manual approach for certain tasks.

For an extreme example of partisanship on this, see the Youtube channel "Inheritance Machining"

ltbarcly3 4 hours ago||
> When we took over the company in 2017…

It was bought out by employees in 2017 and it seems like they weren't able to manage it successfully. The two that acquired it were well over 70 when they did so, so I guess this isn't very surprising. From the article it sounds like they spent a lot of money trying to 'modernize' the business, which sounds a lot like they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money.

jordanb 4 hours ago|
> they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money.

Boy it'd be tragic if these guys felt like they were over their heads, decided to "hire some experts" and ended up with MBAs.

jszymborski 5 hours ago||
All these tariffs haven't saved US manufacturing? Colour me shocked ? /s
carterschonwald 7 hours ago|
the current white house really fucked over all the smaller domestic manufacturers. and scientists. and um america basically
esseph 7 hours ago|
Everything.

If you are a builder, there is no sane way to bid on contracts with such hugely variable COGS.

And how the HELL do you even attempt to fix the US housing supply if you are tariffing Canadian lumber? You can't.

YZF 1 hour ago|||
- US imports 20% of its lumber from Canada vs. 70% local lumber.

- Raw lumber costs are about 1% of the price of a house in California.

- Lumber prices were much much higher during the pandemic and are actually not that high right now: https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber (it's at 9 months low and cheaper than in 2018).

esseph 21 minutes ago||
It's not just lumber.

There is a 24-45% tariff on building supplies, steel, aluminum, and cement.

> Raw lumber costs are about 1% of the price of a house in California.

California is fucking weird then, because it's 16% or more other places.

https://www.txrac.com/blog/cost-to-build-a-house-from-scratc...

pixl97 6 hours ago||||
Guess this is what happens when you elect a group that prioritizes enriching themselves over ensuring you don't starve in the street like a filthy animal.
contingencies 4 hours ago||||
Likewise, how do you attempt to fix US manufacturing if you are tariffing Canadian aluminum?
mschuster91 5 hours ago|||
As for the housing... stop using lumber maybe? Us Europeans build houses out of bricks and mortar or outright concrete.

Lumber framing only makes sense if you want something dirt cheap (and yet, US matchsticks and cardboard houses go for millions of dollars?!) or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable.

woah 1 hour ago|||
What is the deal with europeans who have zero knowledge of construction having a weird grudge against wood framing?
esseph 5 hours ago|||
I have a video for this.

It's because of our earthquakes and the severity of our storms. The lumber frame and design of construction flexes and sways when stone and brick would break (tornados are different story). Likewise when they do break, and they absolutely will given some of these forces, it doesn't bankrupt people and companies when trying to recover from those events. Bigger buildings of concrete, stone and brick here are now built very different, sometimes on giant metal plates with actual springs.

Here you go:

https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s

Btw:

> or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable

https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes