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Posted by bcherny 1 day ago

I am often wrong(borischerny.com)
332 points | 223 comments
wqtz 1 day ago|
I have worked in GTM/PM consultancy for some time now. This is the patterns I often observe:

  - Have a vague understanding of the problem
  - Architect an overcomplicated solution thinking of all possible contingencies
  - Pitching the overcomplicated solution to someone else
  - Ask them to come up with a simple solution. Ask questions to "birth" to the solution.
  - Not providing any feedback as that would mean need you to be accountable for the work
  - Trying to convince them they should work out the solution because they are the expert and much smarter then you
  - Taking credit for solving the problem
chrisvls 21 hours ago||
Yes, I think this is an anti-pattern is similar to the one I often see, basically getting the order wrong like this:

1. Define the problem.

2. Gather information about the problem.

This seems reasonable. "We need to know what we're trying to solve, not boil the ocean."

But it is really common that the information tells us that the problem definition is slightly or really wrong. Hence the importance of gather information, then define the problem... and iterate.

"First define the problem" also feels reasonable because picking the right problem requires a lot of context and experience. Some would add "taste." So in group discussions, people often suggest bad problem definitions. Others then want to get focus and traction. That impatience often results in committing too early to the problem definition.

leoc 1 day ago||
Go To Market/Project Management?
otterley 1 day ago||
This seems strongly aligned with the Amazon doc-writing and decision making process. I found it to be unusually effective as a business process, and took it with me when I left to my current role.

Making thoroughly informed decisions and iterating on a decision doc before committing to a direction and plan is better than every alternative I’ve ever observed in my career.

The criticism I’ve read thus far on this thread seems unwarranted. I give the same kind of feedback to my mentees when their work product or process could use improvement.

margalabargala 1 day ago||
> Making thoroughly informed decisions and iterating on a decision doc before committing to a direction and plan is better than every alternative I’ve ever observed in my career.

My last company did this. It usually devolved into a design-by-committee full of compromises to make various stakeholders happy and often yielded a worse artifact.

It became more effective once people got burnt out on the process and most stakeholders stopped caring and started rubber stamping, allowing the one or two people willing to put in the energy to come up with something coherent.

saghm 1 day ago||
I worked for AWS for several years, eventually leaving during the big "return" to office push because my geographically distributed team working on a product that didn't exist back before the remote period was told we had a month to either move to one of three cities where our team was allowed to work out of our transfer to a team in our area. My wife had an autoimmune condition that would put her at risk if I commuted, so I asked my manager what processes there were for exemptions, but he literally hadn't been told anything by the higher-ups and that as far as he was aware, there were no processes defined at all and we'd have to just try to talk with HR and upper management to try to figure something out. I didn't think that the company expecting me to rush to figure it out when they were the ones who put an artificially constrained timeline on us to either abandon what we had been working on it uproot our lives, so I ended to just giving my notice a couple of days later instead.

My point here is that companies that love to have extremely formal processes around for to handle technical things are not necessarily less likely to have extremely arbitrary decisions without any process for recourse defined when it comes to how employees get treated. If someone describes a technical process that they say they use for everything that a literal reading seems pretty dubious in regards to things like burnout or micromanagement, I don't think it's that crazy to recognize that the reality is probably at least as bad as the obvious implication. Sure, they're not directly saying "I overwork my employees by imposing short deadlines on everything and I nitpick their processes if they different from my own", but there are enough managers who do act this way that it's kind of hard to think someone who cared about being perceived as saying that wouldn't go out of their way to clarify where the nuance is if it truly exists.

trunnell 1 day ago||
> 3. Define the problem

If you do this step well, in my experience, the next steps fall into place quickly.

My version: accurately naming the problem is the essence of problem solving. There are things you usually need to do before you can accurately name the problem, because most problems aren’t presented to you in textbook form.

Once properly defined and framed, it’s obvious how to solve most problems, most of the time.

If you’ve ever worked with someone amazingly good at accurately naming the problem, it’s hard to unsee it. This is one of the hidden talents of the most effective people I’ve met.

FinnKuhn 1 day ago||
I think how important this step is something you realize once you consider the alternative, which is trying to fix a problem, without knowing, what the problem is. It is going to result in weird workarounds instead of addressing the actual issue.
RickHull 17 hours ago|||
Define, identify, name
nirmeetimthebes 1 day ago||
[dead]
andy99 1 day ago||
It’s often struck me how many “leaders” basically jump to step 6, and come up with an urgent set of superficial actions without even clarifying what they’re trying to do. There’s probably some value in “bias for action” as you might call it. But it’s been one of the difficult adjustments for me, how little people want to think.
alansaber 23 hours ago|
Fundamentally they just want the best effort>output ratio. You get information about this during exploration (hence "bias to action"), but you can also get information from taking a moment to step back. It's almost as if there is no catch-all rule for problem solving, which is why these posts have limited utility in isolation (but it's nice to be well-read in the area).
Hnrobert42 1 day ago||
I am confused by step 5.

A. Why define the goal after identifying the solution? Or does define the goal mean identify a stopping point for step 4, in which case you must first define the solution?

B. Isn't the goal explicit in a clear problem definition?

1) Ambiguous problem definition with no implied goal: We need more money.

2) Clearer problem definition with implied goal: We need $500K by Monday.

Vilve 1 day ago|
Just another instance of him being wrong, i guess. (Which he absolutely, most definitively loves!)
Imanari 1 day ago||
Steps 1–5 of his framework are increasingly formal ways of saying “figure out what’s going on before doing something,” followed by step 6: “then do it fast”
verdverm 1 day ago|
“let Claude figure out what’s going on before doing something”

“then ask Claude to do it fast with no mistakes”

(edited for accuracy)

alasano 1 day ago||
Haven't seen any Claude Code specific examples of Boris admitting he's wrong and then actually fixing things in the way the community wants.

There are mind blowing bugs in CC that go unaddressed for months.

Something like 15-20% of all Fable messages in CC are invisible to users. You've most likely noticed this when Claude references something it said but it never said it?

It happens frequently when Fable outputs a message above a certain number of tokens just before doing a tool call.

This has been going on for months. If "users can't see messages the agent sends" isn't a critical issue that gets addressed within 24 hours, I don't really care if you admit you're often wrong, we know.

klausa 1 day ago||
There’s bugs, and there’s also just a ton of bizarre choices that no human would ever make.

CC (the desktop version) has a built-in terminal. It’s great idea when working with worktrees!

But the terminal is _in the sidebar_. Not as a panel that pops up from the bottom like in… every IDE ever that has this feature, but in the sidebar.

You can drag it to the bottom using tiny drag targets if you want, but if course this only persists for a duration of a single conversation.

And there’s a built-in keyboard shortcut to toggle it being shown/hidden. Again, great idea!

But using this resets the panel to its original position, again, making it appear in the sidebar.

Bonus points: when I tried to submit this via the GUI version of /feedback, it told me that it was disabled by workspace policy _after_ I filled out the form and hit submit. Brother, just hide the button that makes the form appear in the first place!

Yizahi 1 day ago|||
Users of Claude aren't customers, they are the product (a living training set data generators). The customers are governments and megacorpos.
plesiv 1 day ago|||
Ridiculous CC bug I encountered, that others have encountered as well: I asked Fable to review a commit. Suddenly my Fable quota for the week was at 100%, while a moment ago it was at 55%. A few days pass (1 day before the weekly reset) the quota resets back to 55%. ?!?!?!?!
nullbio 1 day ago|||
Anthropic never listens to their customers or community. It's basically their culture at this point.
alasano 1 day ago|||
We'd gladly fix the bugs in Claude Code in our own forks but they're too ashamed of their AGI level code to make it open source.

Sorry I meant it's too dangerous to be released.

barrenko 1 day ago|||
That is the culture of any self-respecting startup.

You can be informed by the community, but the decisions are your own.

customguy 1 day ago||
Only gross incompetence can even lead to the point of users telling them what obvious things to fix.

So what are they respecting themselves for, what do they take pride in? Anything I would care about?

dimitri-vs 1 day ago|||
He would, but he keeps hitting his weekly limit. /s Seriously though, you would think they would have the (agentic) resources to do better QA on their flagship product. Not a week goes by without some kind of regression.
voidhorse 1 day ago||
Huh, it's almost like using agents exclusively to write software doesn't lead to quality code or a quality product. Interesting.
misterderpie 1 day ago||
Preaching the choir.

Another example of "More AI, worse app" is amazon.com for me lately. Alexa AI Chat keeps showing whenever I scroll up on the amazon.com mobile page. I don't want Alexa to search for products. Worst thing is, I can't close it. The "X" button just isn't doing anything. So the only way out of it is to refresh the page and avoid scrolling up ...

This has been going on for at least 1 1/2 months by now, and I wonder if it'll ever be fixed.

8bitsout 23 hours ago||
What a bizarre and frustrating "feature". I was bewildered when that was first introduced. Glad I'm not the only one frustrated by it.
scmccarthy 1 day ago|||
Step 1 "Understand the available information" is apparently a hard step.

(I too have been incredulous that this remains an open issue; if this gets it fixed, bring on the boris blog posts!)

cube00 20 hours ago|||
He also edits bug titles to reduce the appearance of the severity while not participating in the discussion to explain why.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48948656

bcherny 1 day ago|||
Author here. How can I repro what you’re seeing? Double check you don’t have /focus mode enabled.
alasano 1 day ago|||
Which one of multiple GitHub issues on this topic should I link to?

#67071 is one of them

Or #83281 which you closed as a duplicate of #67051 which was closed as not planned.

There's a bunch more. Just ask Claude to search repo issues for messages not being shown.

bcherny 1 day ago||
Looking
_345 1 day ago||
Are there days when you forget to apply your framework or you feel lazy and cheat/shortcut parts/all of the framework?
bcherny 1 day ago|||
Fairly often, yeah. Sometimes it is too easy to get excited about a solution without taking the time to specify a clear problem/goal.
orta 1 day ago||
Yeah, I feel you here :+1:
cryptonector 20 hours ago|||
I bet things fall by the wayside. The firehose volume is very high.
stingraycharles 1 day ago||||
I’m surprised that you haven’t noticed this yourself, this is an incredibly common issue.

I always thought that it was perhaps referencing something that’s in its hidden thinking tokens, but the grandparent’s explanation could also very well be it.

alasano 1 day ago|||
Yeah it's something server side if I recall correctly from the numerous threads, regular messages getting returned as thinking tokens or something strange.

I've got a Claude session going which can check sessions and count how many of these messages I haven't seen due to this bug.

bcherny 1 day ago|||
I always use /focus mode, Tag, or Projects, so didn’t notice it personally. Either way, digging in.
jannyfer 1 day ago|||
On a similar topic - since you said "I always use" - is it true that nearly everyone at Anthropic is using Fable and that's why Opus 5's style of speech was not really noticed as problematic by Anthropic employees?
troupo 1 day ago|||
[flagged]
stingraycharles 1 day ago||
This comment is needlessly hostile and adds no value to the conversation.
albedoa 21 hours ago|||
You actually don't speak for us. On the contrary, it is because of threads like this that I am aware of bcherny's reputation. You are woefully ill-equipped to be assigning value to anyone's contributions or policing their tone, especially as someone who so eagerly laps up what he is fed by bad-faith actors.

> I’m surprised that you haven’t noticed this yourself

How much money have you lost to crypto scams.

troupo 1 day ago|||
I feel like we should call the behaviour of people out.

That is the modus operandi of Anthropic and all of its employees (at least those active on social media).

More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49785996

This behaviour is regardless of whether the issue is an edge case or it affects most of their users who are shouting from the rooftops

troupo 1 day ago|||
The typical Anthropic/bcherny reaponse. "I've never noticed this, can you tell me more".

See literally every isssue, even those widely reported.

epihelix 1 day ago||
To be fair, isn't this the standard response to issues everywhere? Generally, users will find edge cases in odd scenarios that are difficult to reproduce.

(But I do not use CC and have never looked at their issue trackers, so maybe I'm missing something.)

troupo 1 day ago||
> To be fair, isn't this the standard response to issues everywhere?

No, not really. Anthropic is notorius for ignoring issues, pretending they don't exist, gaslighting and blaming users, then spending weeks fixing things that end up being obvious even to juniors.

At the same time they proudly tell everyone how they don't look at code anymore and only run a gazillion Claude sessions.

bellowsgulch 1 day ago||
[flagged]
lelanthran 1 day ago|||
> Just shut up dude. Show me your numbers or shut up.

While Claude Code is a bunch of bugs held together by below-cost prices, and many have strong opinions on the seniority level of the lead dev(s), I think this is unnecessarily rude.

You're not talking to a bot here, you're talking to a person. Would you communicate your argument in this way to someone standing in front of you?

Whatever happened to attacking the idea, not the person?

wiseowise 1 day ago|||
I mean, TikTok/Reddit kids, and Twitter freaks, might find it “insightful”, “inspiring”, an “honest take”, “breath of fresh air” in “the age of ai”.

First thread when searching for “Boris Cherny” : https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1r161uq/...

Just read through their messages, they live with a bizarre, crooked worldview. Seeing something basic, like “you can pee and poo at the same time”, blows their mind.

averynicepen 1 day ago||
Boris's checklist is just a slightly modified version of your classic mathematics or engineering problem solving steps.

1. Write down your problem statement.

2. State your knowns, unknowns, and assumptions.

3. Solve.

(Step 2 is also further enhanced by performing first principles reasoning, collecting data for evidence, and using reasonable estimates where data is absent.)

I think Boris's list is pretty solid, but I personally would unmix the problem solving methodology from the planning/goal setting SMART principles as two separate things. One addresses problem solving, while the other addresses human cognitive shortcomings for getting things done.

jascha_eng 1 day ago||
That's what it took to finally support Agents.md I guess. Boris had to blog about having made a mistake.

How about you stop taking things so personal instead and let others steer more.

bcherny 1 day ago|
Author here. These are unrelated, just happened to both be the same week.
conmod278 1 day ago|||
you can ask Claude to see how much of your process is similar to scientific process.
kouteiheika 1 day ago|||
[dead]
6LLvveMx2koXfwn 1 day ago|
Unlike me, 56 and yet to be wrong once.
dofm 1 day ago|
It is a burden all of its own.
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