Posted by metrofun 4 hours ago
void Em1eWeaponSet(cEm10* em) { Em10Work* w = EM10_WK(em);
w->mot[41] = 0;
w->mot[42] = 0;
…
w->mot[62] = 0;
w->mot[63] = ARC(0x26C);
w->mot[64] = ARC(0x26D);
w->mot[65] = ARC(0x276);
w->mot[66] = ARC(0x277);
w->mot[67] = 0;
w->mot[68] = 0;
w->mot[69] = ARC(0x26A);
w->mot[70] = ARC(0x26B);
w->mot[71] = ARC(0x270);
w->mot[72] = ARC(0x271);
w->mot[73] = ARC(0x272);
w->mot[74] = ARC(0x273);
w->mot[75] = ARC(0x274);
w->mot[76] = ARC(0x275);
w->mot[77] = 0;
w->mot[78] = 0;
}Made using the leaked debug build and its symbols, which shows how meaningful the work the game preservation community that acquires and distributes these things is.
OTOH this is pretty off-putting:
> Where the compiler needed a particular source shape to reproduce a register choice or a schedule and no natural spelling was found, the construct is marked with a // COMPILER-DIFF: comment (644 of them: dead tests, empty asm("") launders and anchors, register T x asm("rN") pins, padding statements).
To me the value of a decomp isn't reproducing the original bytes per se (we already have the original bytes after all) - it's about reconstructing the understanding of the original game as represented by human-readable source code; getting byte-for-byte is just an indication that you've gotten it right. Needing to add a bunch of slop to force the compiler to match the original output is actually just an indication that you've gotten it wrong - and it's a demonstration of the danger of Goodhart's law, especially as it applies to AI.
The reason I’m finding this is much faster than a traditional decomp is that while it’d be nice for the bytes to match, finding the perfect blend of compiler version, compiler args, permitting variables etc to try and find the perfect register assignments, etc is all very time consuming. My ultimate goal is not a byte for byte match, that’s just one way to ensure correctness. I’ve found agents are much faster and effective at reading the original assembly and understanding what’s going on then writing semantically equivalent C.
There is also value in decomps beyond just understanding and general interest. They can also be used to make more advanced mods, better translation patches, etc. The fidelity here matters, like having asm code accessing structures makes it hard to modify structures, but any fidelity improvement beyond pure asm is very welcome.
Of course I still prefer to try to recover the original code that caused the compiler to do what it did, but it's a really challenging problem sometimes. I've been working on decompiling code from old versions of MSVC for literally years now and you accumulate some knowledge of what things impact register allocation or the order of symbols but some of it comes from things that get fully erased from the source. Like for example, debug builds generally seem to retain symbols that aren't actually referenced anywhere, but those symbols only actually make it into an object file if they are. For functions that were only ever inlined and not actually referenced anywhere... They still wind up in the object files and thus in debug builds, despite nothing referencing them. They are also COMDAT any'd because they can appear in multiple objects legally, which means the exact object that winds up retaining it in the final linked executable is arbitrary (and the compilation flags of the object containing it, too - I bet that was fun for developers to debug.) This is incredibly useful but very challenging, needless to say. It may even be feasible to construct examples that would be legitimately infeasible to simply guess back to equivalent source, which I suspect is a major reason why until it was finally shown to be possible in larger scale projects many people wrote fully matching decomps off as a fool's errand..
I haven't tried this, but I also suspect that once you have a lot of code fully matching, it might make it possible to ratchet your way up further into builds that you don't have debug information for, that may have more aggressive compilation options. I am not sure if you would manage to get /LTCG builds fully matching even with this advantage, but it's going to be the best shot at it. You're possibly 90% of the way there already.
And yes if you have a pdb / an Od build then things are much easier, I was assuming arbitrary game i.e. release binaries.
The "knowledge laundering" approach you describe might help in reconstructing headers, class layouts and function names which is a godsend although I don't think it would be enough to get a match. Getting functionally equivalent code is muuuch easier (although there's the problem of "how do you verify that without running every function")
"get the order of local variables in this function right, otherwise the register allocation doesn't match. Oh and there's 150 local variables just in this function, good luck trying them all"
"Find out the translation unit boundaries exactly (assume there's no pdb otherwise this is trivial) and after doing so, figure out the order they were compiled in, otherwise it won't match"
"brute force the compilation flags for the project and if you're done, also bruteforce it for the CRT or any other middleware which usually came prebuilt so it doesn't match the main game"
Should I continue;)
Maybe someone else comes and helps out here and there.
Heh. I was just looking at the RE family on Steam. Nothing over a fiver.
I guess they really did make it more convenient than piracy.
You inherit the copyright from the original, as this is derivative.
There's a reason decompilation has always been a grey area of seeing whether or not the copyright holder cares.
From a technical perspective emulation is absolutely amazing, it requires deep technical knowledge, an excellent understanding of the source system and the optimisations are on another level.
Boggles my mind that there is hate for AI in retro-gaming. It's all about making existing things work. If it works and plays well, who cares if Claude did it in an afternoon or some human who spent a year of his life. In fact, I'd rather have Claude do it. Humans will get bored, get involved in community drama, disappear, etc. Unfortunate for the humans who are seeing their life's contribution to the scene made obsolete by a few kilowatt-hours in a datacenter, but good for the rest of us.
So having Claude one-shot a NES emulator is almost pointless to me. You're using and looking at source code for an emulator you didn't write -- and you can learn from that, but it's not the same thing and doesn't require you to really understand a CPU the way you would by, say, observing a deviation in game behavior and staring at trace logs to figure out the exact instruction you emulated incorrectly.
It's not all bad -- AI is a great research tool and can automate some of the tedious parts (writing out an instruction decoder by hand is miserable). But using it to just...skip over the effort of doing a project defeats the whole purpose of doing those projects in the first place.
I don't want to be gatekeepy or curmudgeonly or "back in my day..." about it. But for me, my entire career path is due to skills and knowledge I learned spending several years of my life as a teenager figuring out how to write an NES emulator as a relative beginner to programming. And so I feel like using AI for this is depriving the next generation of that learning process. In addition, there are only so many retro games, and fewer popular ones. There's only so much unexplored territory to discover, and doing it with AI deprives another person of that experience and deprives that game's community of someone who might have been able to find a "home" working on projects related to that game.
You could put an Einstein paper on a photocopier, mask the author, put your name in the place and publish. Except everyone would have thought you are an idiot.
You could clone the Linux kernel, erase all copyrights and release under Idiux. Except everyone would have thought you are an idiot.
Now that there are laundering machines financed with unlimited printed and previously stolen money a large number of developers affirms and praises the idiots.
We live in a golden age of emulation because that attitude died out. With more powerful computers (and less hack-oriented development) it became possible to properly emulate a complete console with a high level of accuracy. For preservationist purposes, accurate emulation is much more important than being the first to emulate a game, or even being able to decompile it. The only reason that we can point and laugh at low-quality efforts like Nintendo Switch Online is because the community cares even more than Nintendo did. The reason Wine/DXVK/Proton works so well is because it didn't fracture itself into a thousand downstream forks to fix one specific game. It's a holistic effort.
A lot of the hand-wringing comes from a justified place that doesn't want to see emulation backslide into a bazaar-like community. You're free to disagree with their logic and vibe-code a thousand game decomps, but in all likelihood emulation will be a more popular choice for the foreseeable future. Lots of people emulate stuff on their iPhone or Steam Deck, almost nobody is playing a game decomp on it though. I can't imagine AI tipping the scales on decomp popularity, especially among average Joes.
Too bad all the cool decompilation is happening for games on early 3D centric consoles. I say this a Quake fanatic. Low res textures combined with that blurry bilinear style filtering is a look that's not easy to love. It's just a generational thing I guess.
Doesn't mean I liked them, or that they wouldn't have been better as a 2D game. But IMHO the graphics stopped distracting from fun games... OTOH, I played plenty of games on the Atari 2600 were the player character wasn't much more than a chonky pixel :p
There has been some 2D decomps too, Pokemon Red/Blue being the biggest I can think of. I can also imagine they make more sense for the 3D consoles where games tended to be written in higher level languages than raw assembly.