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Posted by Brajeshwar 1 day ago

Good people refuse to do bad things(carette.xyz)
140 points | 146 commentspage 2
skyberrys 23 hours ago|
I understand the concern about your work being used to cause harm, but I also worry about the development of 'forbidden knowledge'. What does it mean to say a branch of science and engineering is too dangerous of a path to go down? Does it mean scientists are persecuted just for asking questions and designing experiments to find answers? Will there be witch hunts against ML researchers? Part of teaching is trusting your students to use the learnings wisely.
trumpdong 23 hours ago||
This isn't the first. What did it mean for human embryonic gene editing?
bornfreddy 23 hours ago||
That is a good point, but the problem with ML/AI is that anyone can do it. It will be difficult to stem this tide.
trumpdong 17 hours ago||
Thought Emporium is a YouTube channel that has showcased garage gene editing - with some equipment.
hollerith 21 hours ago|||
What is your basis for calling them "witch hunts" rather than "criminal prosecutions"? (The prosecutions would start only after the passage of a new law making the questions and experiments illegal.)

If you work at a defense contractor on warplanes, radar systems or nuclear weapons and you are too free in how you teach or write about your professional knowledge, you go to prison, and it has been that way in the US continuously since WWII. Criminal prosecutions are relatively rare because security-clearance background investigations filter out most of the job applicants who would go on to violate the laws.

autoexec 22 hours ago||
There's a lot of very dangerous scientific work that gets done because we've put safety measures in place to protect workers and the public to the best of our ability. This allows the dangerous work to be done as safely as possible.

"AI" is being worked on and funded by sociopaths who care about money over all else and have demonstrated that they are willing to hurt others in exchange for more of it. There are no rules or protections for anybody anywhere. In fact AI companies are pouring bribe money into our corrupt political system in an effort to remove or avoid anything that would stop them from doing whatever they want.

moondistance 1 day ago||
The root issue is a lack of honour in the world today.
vvpan 23 hours ago||
I think that puts too much onto personal responsibility. Most problems are structural.
zaphar 23 hours ago|||
Personal responsibility leads to corporate responsibility which is the solve for structural problems. You can never impose a new structure to fix it unless you embrace some form of corporate responsibility which requires personal responsibility.
vvpan 20 hours ago||
By law the only corporate responsibility is to shareholders (and law). [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

zaphar 18 hours ago||
I was not referring to corporations.
phyzome 21 hours ago|||
And that structure is made of people, and supported by people's decisions.

People are very happy to abdicate what personal responsibility they have if they can blame the system. (And then fail to help change the system.)

vvpan 20 hours ago||
A system where shareholder value is effectively the only metric will align the people accordingly.
agumonkey 23 hours ago|||
And also cost. Standing out from the pack is always costly, you may not find job right away, you might be outcast .. the more we have safety nets the easier it is to quit bad groups.
rglover 23 hours ago||
It also helps to develop better judgment and awareness so you never get into bed with bad people in the first place. "Lay down with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas" applies to business (even getting a job is "doing business") as much as it does other things.
agumonkey 19 hours ago||
Fair point but sometimes groups evolve, they may go from acceptable to immoral while you're still in it.
jyounker 23 hours ago||
Please name a specific time when there was more honor in the world.
bzmrgonz 23 hours ago||
In my opinion, we need a sort of survey, let's put it out there, can we get a collective voice from most ai phd's? Remember when climate change was in the scientific tug-of-war? The conclusion for a long time was that 9 in 10 scientists believed in climate change. So, why can't we do that with "ai is gonna kill us"
fodkodrasz 18 hours ago|
The more someone has invested into the system (eg. getting a Phd), the more likely will deny the true risks, as their investment is at stakes. Scientists are quite often willing to have other people take great risks for their pet topics.
nilslindemann 23 hours ago||
He may also have gotten paid for it by players, which dont want AGI, because it would disturb their plans. Imagine AGI works out a plan, which, when applied by everyday people without needing any government help, enforces the end of wars, poverty, pollution, illness, unhappiness, worldwide.
armchairhacker 23 hours ago||
It's impossible to judge long term effects. My only advice is to think long and deep, then do what is true to yourself. Jacob Coxon and Frances Haugen are good people by any reasonable metric, and maybe someone who stays but tries to steer the system from the inside is good too.
1vuio0pswjnm7 19 hours ago||
"Jacob Coxon is not a star. He is not a CEO, not a famous scientist, and does not hold a PhD (yes, in USA you can be an "AI researcher" without a PhD)."

Does he have any formal education

chilmers 23 hours ago||
Why is it that every one of these anti-AI screeds that gets upvoted on HN has been clearly written by AI?

Here is one of his posts from 2022:

"Since a long time now I was interested in learning computer graphics and “do stuff” with computer graphics APIs. I began to work on a very simple Game engine in Swift / Metal last year but I began to switch to a Windows machine a few months ago, and Swift / Metal is not compatible with Windows (and will never be I think)."

https://carette.xyz/posts/opengl_and_cpp_on_m1_mac/

This is the same person who is apparently now writing:

"It is a transaction where you sell the part of you that was supposed to care. Do that often enough, and it does not come back. That is not burnout, but it is still a disease. Although, like every disease, it spreads: first to your team, then to your product, then to the people using it."

trumpdong 23 hours ago|
Everything that gets upvoted on HN has been written by AI. Because AI writing works (if your goal is to attract upvotes).
01100011 23 hours ago||
I think a lot of the success of the valley comes from disguising the thing the people are working on. If the end goals of our work were apparent to us we'd have a lot harder time showing up for work everyday.

That said, I don't buy this article. I'm AI neutral. It's going to break a lot of things and fix many others. Good for you if you think you know what the net outcome will be but I think it's delusional to believe you do. Also I don't think you can resign and stop it without ceding the world to bad people. Pandora's box has already been opened. We've discovered a new thing math can do and now it's yet another arms race between various factions seeking to exploit it. Help the faction you want to win. It's not the world I want it to be, but it is what it is.

cluckindan 1 day ago||
Good people are easy to mislead into thinking they’re doing a good thing.
davsti4 23 hours ago||
Correction - highly intelligent people.

Its the same playbook, over and over again.

BalinKing 22 hours ago|||
[Disclaimer: I believe that morality is objective (and that our consciences are generally reliable guides, albeit ones we can suppress or even change), so any strong statements I make below are implicitly coming from this perspective.]

I strongly disagree, I think this is instead true for those who have an image of themself as "good". IME, someone whose identity involves their "goodness" (and I certainly include myself here) will be willing to do a whole lot to maintain that perception (whether it's a self-perception or an external one). In particular, I think that someone already motivated to feel good about themselves is going to be easier to mislead by slick arguments. See the unfalsifiable longterm-ism of modern-day EA ("you can do an incalculably large amount of good with comparatively minimal effort"), much of today's political violence/radicalism, or the religious persecution all throughout history, whether against the religious (many of last century's authoritarians) or by the religious: cf. Jesus' warning about this in John 16:2 ("They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God."), or even just the Bible's very many warnings against pride (e.g. Proverbs 26:12 [0]) and self-righteousness (e.g. Romans 10:2-3 [1]).

(Of course, sometimes people have no way of knowing a priori that they're being misled. I'm exclusively talking about cases where, deep down, one could/should have known that the situation wasn't actually on the up-and-up... which I'd argue is much more common than we often like to think.)

On the other hand, I'd argue that someone who is truly doing what is good is, by definition, unable to be swayed from that (for then they wouldn't be doing good things anymore, no matter what words they want to use to describe themselves or others). Relatedly, I don't agree that someone can be a "good person" in the absence of actually doing good. (Naturally, this is an extraordinarily high bar, and I'd argue an impossible one to perfectly meet.)

I'm reminded of C.S. Lewis's famous quote:

> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

[0] "You have seen a man wise in his own opinion— there is more hope for a fool than for him."

[1] "For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For not knowing about the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." (emphasis mine)

rvz 23 hours ago||
For the "benefit of humanity", "saving the world" and "imaging to do good" via effective altruistic ways. /s
jmclnx 1 day ago|
Nice to see people standing up for their beliefs even when it could hurt them.

Story time :)

I remember when I was first starting out as a programmer. At QE (always occurred on a weekend) a slew of financial reports were created and printed for review the following Monday then I think used for summaries for Wall Street to look at.

A high level finance manager came to me and asked if the report could be changed, not knowing what he was asking I said sure. After a long discussion turned out he wanted the numbers on the report changed and re-printed. I said it was possible but the numbers would be all wrong.

So he said "do it". I went to my manager and told them what he wanted, then I refused to do it. I said I would quit first because I did not want the SEC to come after me. Luckily they all supported me and the finance manager was told to "FO".

FWIW, that company is long gone.

dofm 23 hours ago|
Yes. You never threaten to resign. You conditionally promise to resign.

I had to make this conditional promise once, back in the nineties, as a junior person in a related industry. Because in the dot-com era developers like me were often simultaneously a babe-in-arms on a professional career level and also the only person who knew how to do the work that was being sold. I decided that if it came to it, I would not be the person having a hard time in court. The client understood better than my bosses and they changed the product. Took them a few minutes at most, but I have reason to believe that my decision made some ripples.

Nowadays I don’t let those issues surprise me: I believe in establishing specific ethical standards at the beginning of projects, because if you don’t do that, you don’t have a basis to robustly point to actions that put them at risk.

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