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Posted by dimonomid 15 hours ago

AI Has No Wisdom and Neither Will You(alexn.org)
369 points | 519 commentspage 5
lasky 13 hours ago|
We are teaching machines to do the work.

Capital always prefers machines.

simultsop 14 hours ago||
I do not think, the intention in using AI, will ever be gaining wisdom. It is rather moving computations to a larger computing system.
smerrill2 14 hours ago||
> I'm no luddite, I’ve integrated AI in my everyday work, while actually teaching my colleagues what I’ve learned

It's appalling that we still hold on to such things that are no longer necessary. Code maintainability is not a problem when you don't have to open a file and inspect how something works anymore. You use english to add to it. You sit on chairs everyday where you don't give a shit how they were created. They fulfill their purpose. hopefully the same can be said for your software.

cryptonym 14 hours ago||
> You sit on chairs everyday where you don't give a shit how they were created.

I am dumb on chair making, as the average chair user. I wouldn't trust myself building a commercial-grade chair.

If you are as dumb with software as I am with chair making, you should refrain from building software for others. This is regardless of LLM.

mjr00 14 hours ago|||
> Code maintainability is not a problem when you don't have to open a file and inspect how something works anymore. You use english to add to it.

Hilarious and unhinged junior dev and/or outsourced dev and/or expert beginner take here.

Not everything is baby's first React app for an internal business or B2B SaaS startup with 3 users. Sometimes your software is actually used by people, and bugs happen, and you need to figure out why bugs happen, and quickly. You do this by reading the code. Yes, AI is very helpful with this--sometimes. But even SOTA agents cannot solve every bug, particularly when the person directing them has no clue what they're doing, as in your case, so they aren't given good constraints or starting points.

iillexial 14 hours ago|||
>It's appalling that we still hold on to such things that are no longer necessary. Code maintainability is not a problem when you don't have to open a file and inspect how something works anymore.

Even if you never read/write code anymore you still need to care. LLMs also suffer from a bad code. LLMs very quickly lose track of their own shit and start producing more bugs.

feanaro 14 hours ago|||
What exactly is appalling? Are you referring to something in the sentence you quoted?
zxor 14 hours ago||
So have you never had a problem the LLM couldn't solve? What do you do in that scenario?

How do you guide the LLM away from making a horrible choice if you don't understand the internals?

donatj 15 hours ago||
I'm not quite a doomer. I use AI every single day. I also take a fairly negative view of AI generated code, but I think it's unavoidable while remaining employed these days. A fact I find pretty depressing.

I absolutely agree with the author that humans need to be in the loop reviewing and understand the code they're merging, and generally take a "Hey, build X like Y utilizing Z" approach when using AI to build instead of the "Hey, solve this problem" approach. Our PE overlords actually mandate the latter, but I'm not doing it.

However, a point the author misses is that with AI, major refactors become relatively quick. Hours instead of months/years.

Yes, AI can and probably will land you with major foundational and architectural problems, but your architecture isn't set in stone anymore. Your entire codebase bends like a leaf in the wind.

lolakutty 14 hours ago||
>major refactors become relatively quick. Hours instead of months/years..

This will probably maintain the problem in a different form.

_superposition_ 15 hours ago|||
Yep great point, it works both ways. It can dig you a hole faster, but also help you get out of it with less effort.
aprilthird2021 15 hours ago||
Yes but if you don't care enough to think about, analyze, and decide how to improve your architecture, it doesn't matter. And I'm seeing that a lot with full vibe code code bases
donatj 15 hours ago||
Yes, and I'm arguing you can absolutely vibe code your way out of a corner you vibe coded your way into. Especially with enough vibe coded functionality tests. Your codebase is entirely mutable soup.

Caring about the architecture only matters if you intend to build on top of it, where it become hard to mutate for needs. Big refactors are quick and (relatively) cheap if you don't care about the code.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way a fan of vibe coding but the "you're going to vibe code yourself into a corner you can't get out of" argument doesn't hold water.

lolakutty 14 hours ago||
> you can absolutely vibe code your way out of a corner you vibe coded your way into..

Yea, probably with a more expensive model.

iltenahmet 13 hours ago||
you don't need to read or write code directly to prevent it from becoming an unmaintainable mess. they way you prompt, the loops and skills you build for your harness and the way you set structure around it can get you most of the benefits of reading & writing code manually
mccoyb 15 hours ago||
Here's the one simple trick that fixes everything:

- Use the code that your agents write in anger.

There you go. Do I know when my agents fuck up? Yes, I absolutely do -- because I'm a user of the code I have my agents write, and I ask things like "why is it taking 50 ms to start this program ..." and then I go in and find stupidity, and excise it. I do this over and over again.

Is it faster than writing it out by hand? Maybe! It's definitely a different perspective.

Start behaving like a baby "why, why, why" and then do a bit of reading, and you'll be fine.

A lot of these blog posts seem like they're aimed at software written by B2B companies who don't even use their own software ...

amelius 15 hours ago||
AI labs should produce AI that can take support calls. But let it stay away from the fun jobs like coding.
Madmallard 14 hours ago|
I personally loathe interacting with AI support
alansaber 13 hours ago||
"New technology: cool but the supply chain is vulnerable". A tale as old as time.
bilater 11 hours ago||
This is one of those predictions that sound very wise and do well on Hacker News, but will turn out to be completely wrong. For the simple reason that we’re basing all our assumptions on decades of learned behavior predicated on coding being expensive. Writing code has historically been expensive and, by extension, so is maintaining it.

But when you can literally generate a whole codebase in a few hours, a lot of these assumptions don’t hold up. That doesn’t mean you don’t need sound logic and maintainability. But a lot of the small things you think would go wrong because of a bloated codebase stop being meaningful objections when you can keep generating, testing, and reworking it until those issues are resolved.

A lot of what we consider good engineering judgment is shaped by the constraints we’ve always worked under. I don’t think people appreciate how much of that changes when those constraints go away. The "slop" problem is ultimately a verification and testability problem.

brunooliv 15 hours ago|
"There will be consequences"

And, so what? Software as an engineering discipline has long lacked standardization and regulation to be on par with other engineering disciplines, and the fact that code and all its surrounding ecosystems are not "visibile" or "malleable" makes this extremely hard.

You can use terraform and yaml to define infrastructure that literally spins up machines _somewhere_ in the internet. With all its issues, bugs and associated consequences mostly being ignored.

I just don't understand the difficulty in KNOWING what needs to be done: NO LLM usage in university/grad/high schools, NO LLM usage in the first 3 years of your professional career.

Once the basics are solidly grasped, then they can use it at will.

The problem has never been about wisdom, knowledge or LLMs writing good, bad, maintainable or terrible code. It has always been about the skill level of people using it AND on the fact that people start off-loading basic things to these models that they wouldn't before.

If you have the knowledge and "suffered" through experience to learn the fundamentals, than not using LLMs becomes more deterimental than beneficial.

You just CAN NOT skip the trial by fire of learning and absorbing knowledge on your own. That's all.

nuancebydefault 14 hours ago|
> No LLM in schools

The only plausible thing to enforce in practice is "no LLM usage in tests", ie using pen and paper or a fully managed digital device.

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