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Posted by luu 1 day ago

There is no epidemic of loneliness, but there is an epidemic of scurvy(www.experimental-history.com)
87 points | 72 comments
ShadowOfThePit 1 day ago|
Interesting factoid:

> Over and over again, studies[0] find that people think that their past conversations went worse than they actually did and that future conversations will go worse than they actually do. But when you just make people talk to each other, they end up having a nice time and feeling more confident[1] about their conversational abilities.

[0]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15298868.2020.18...

[1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002210312...

Razengan 1 day ago|
I think it's a side-effect of certain facets of intelligence, mistrained or unrestrained:

Repeatedly processing memory, recursively calling the same function without a limit or exit condition :)

delichon 1 day ago||
> no one is getting rich selling anti-loneliness pills (yet)

Annual sales of antidepressants in North America are about $8 billion.

TripolitianFish 1 day ago||
Not to mention the money grifters (à la manosphere freaks) rake in, or the regular reports of people using LLMs as therapists and friends.

Not sure what the point of closing your eyes and plugging your years is

watwut 18 hours ago||
Manosphere is more of a cause of loneliness of some men then the consequence of it. Likewise with LLM as therapists and friends.
lemmetellya 1 day ago|||
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pessimizer 1 day ago||
Yes, but they start by giving those to children and teenagers, and telling them that if they ever stop taking the pills they'll kill themselves.
Tangurena2 1 day ago|||
Like Focusyn?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother%27s_Little_Helper

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 1 day ago|||
It's almost like the primary objective is to make money rather than 'protect the children'.
smt88 1 day ago|||
Doctors make nothing for prescribing SSRIs to kids
titzer 1 day ago||
The don't get a direct kickback, but there is an absolutely massive campaign to influence prescription decisions right out in the open:

https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q781

FTA:

> Some 57% of US doctors received more than $12bn in payments related to medical drugs or devices from manufacturers between 2013 and 2022, an analysis has found.1 “Despite evidence that financial conflicts of interest may influence physician prescribing and may damage patients’ trust in medical professionals, such payments remain pervasive,” says the letter in JAMA.

b3lvedere 1 day ago|||
Making lots of money protects the children of the shareholders from being poor. Perhaps even their childrens children. Or their childrens childrens children. /s
dudisubekti 1 day ago||
This "loneliness" part of this article is confusing to me.

> People are more alone than ever, but they’re not feeling much lonelier than they used to. So maybe all this extra solitude is...fine?

Okay but the data examined for "more alone" is US data with unclear age range (most likely adults). But the data examined for "not feeling much lonelier" is UK data and US school teenager data. I feel like there's a massive blind spot with the fact there's no US adult data...?

bluGill 1 day ago|
That was the point of the first part: nobody has data and so we cannot say there is any trend.
dudisubekti 1 day ago|||
But then we can't claim "There is no epidemic of loneliness" without proper data too. The honest (shame this word is ruined by LLMs) conclusion is "we don't know if there's an epidemic of loneliness," which can go either way: either there really is no epidemic of loneliness, or is undetected.
card_zero 1 day ago|||
Well you can do the Occam's razor / Russell's teapot thing, and ask why should there be any specific thing in the absence of (unlooked-for) evidence. Perhaps it's an epidemic of silliness, you know, or itchiness, or moodiness? Could be anything or nothing.
atmavatar 1 day ago||
> why should there be any specific thing in the absence of (unlooked-for) evidence

As stated in the article, we do have evidence that people are more alone than ever, and there's a correlation between being alone and loneliness. It's perfectly reasonable to ask whether (but not assume) people are more lonely than ever.

card_zero 1 day ago||
Good point, that's a reason to wonder.

I think this "social scurvy" thing is completely spurious, though. Some people get anxious when alone, probably including the author, hence this post justifying socializing as something everybody else needs to do. Because after all, being unsociable is socially unacceptable. But what's this based on? Being alone is correlated with ill health - well, people will tend to stay far away from you if you have the plague. One study found that people's desire for company rose hardly at all after a mere ten hours, is that surprising? I mean, make it a month, ask me again. This isn't evidence for socializing being necessary. Then we have tribal New Guineans chattering constantly about "who urinated when and where", but just because they're a model of a close-to-nature society doesn't mean the things they do are right, or healthy, and it doesn't mean we have to. (I might also wonder how close together people in tribes are in terms of genes and houses. If they count as "household", that's disqualified from being true socialization in this theory anyway.)

lemmetellya 1 day ago|||
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card_zero 1 day ago|||
Despite the lack of data, I have no hunch that there is any such trend anyway. Just wanted to say that before somebody inevitably says the opposite.

My gut feeling says: don't ask me, I'm a gut.

boilerupnc 1 day ago||
The microbiome has now entered the room.
alexpotato 1 day ago||
> She ended up flirting with her GoPro cameras, hallucinating the sound of shamans beating drums, and accusing her electrical equipment of poisoning her with sound waves.

There is an interesting phenomenon called "the Firehouse Effect" that is similar but on a group level.

The idea is that if you take a group of humans and isolate them, they will begin to believe wilder and wilder ideas and communicate those ideas amongst themselves. This happens because the group is not routinely "reconciling" with broader society which in turn is slower to adopt new ideas.

It's named after firemen who would spend a lot of time together in firehouses.

https://absoluteengagement.com/blog/are-you-stuck-in-the-fir...

Smoosh 1 day ago|
Interesting. I wonder if that also applies to small groups of people on social media?
ShadowOfThePit 1 day ago||
Weird post. I like the way it's written, there are lots of very interesting links, and the images are quite unique. But it goes on and on, and the conclusion is lacking.

I'd enjoy it for fun, to pass the time, to read a dozen follow-up articles. But as a one-off post to learn and inform myself? Ugh.

Unrelated, but two of the many links have ChatGPT referals. I'm not sure what to think of it. I guess it's fine?

crazygringo 1 day ago||
> All of this can be prevented with a few tablespoons of lemon juice, but people suffering from scurvy do not develop a hankering for citrus. They will suffer and wither and collapse and never even ask for a grapefruit.

Funny, I absolutely do develop a hankering for citrus whenever my body needs vitamin C. After a workout, and after getting sun at the beach, or just whenever I've gone a couple days without getting enough vitamin C, I absolutely develop a sudden craving for oranges/grapefruit/pineapple/orange juice/Emergen-C. And it doesn't go away until I have enough.

I assume that this is a kind of learned association, that you can recognize the feeling of vitamin C depletion and your body quickly connects that that goes away when you eat certain foods.

But my body absolutely tells me when I need vitamin C. And whether it's at a level of "it would be a nice idea to have some now" or "you need a LOT more vitamin C RIGHT NOW".

ungovernableCat 1 day ago||
Do you crave bell peppers? They have double the amount of vitamin c as oranges do from what I remember.
crazygringo 1 day ago|||
Yup they definitely work too, but eating an entire raw green pepper doesn't always sit great in my stomach, and I don't always have red/orange/yellow varieties on hand. If I'm all out of citrus, I'll definitely grab a bell pepper instead... but I usually make sure to have citrus around.
R_D_Olivaw 1 day ago|||
For me it's either a craving for lime/citrus or strawberries. When I crave strawberries, I know somethings up.
crazygringo 1 day ago||
Oh yeah strawberries do the trick too. I just only have them around in the summer and go through them so quickly...
globular-toast 1 day ago||
If you eat any vegetables at all it's unlikely you're ever vitamin C deficient. You are probably just craving sugar.
crazygringo 1 day ago||
I cannot tell you how wrong you are.
globular-toast 1 day ago||
Why don't you at least try?
crazygringo 1 day ago||
Why don't you not make insulting comments like "You are probably just craving sugar," implying that I can't tell the difference?

Even a cursory amount of research will reveal to you that people who engage in athletic activity require higher amounts of vitamin C, and your assertion that these people get enough vitamin C just from common servings of vegetables is flat-out wrong. And keeping in mind that cooking vegetables reduces and sometimes outright pretty much removes their vitamin C, depending on the cooking method.

And the fact that you think I wouldn't notice that e.g. Coca-Cola equally satisfied my need, and that this desire for citrus or Emergen-C has just been a mistake, that's the insulting part.

So you will understand why an insulting comment like yours does not deserve a full explanation of a reply, but I'm going out of my way to provide one anyways. In the hopes that you can learn from this and not leave such knee-jerk dismissive comments in the future.

vintermann 1 day ago||
> Remember 2017, when everybody was making slime at home? Remember how the coolest slimes were the ones that are liquid when undisturbed, but turn solid when you squeeze or poke them? The human mind is kind of like that slime: it only has shape when prodded and pushed by the presence of other people. When left to its own devices, it turns to ooze. And that sticky, shapeless substance provides the perfect Petri dish for all of our current pathologies. The penchant for voting for extremists, the hyperfixation on gambling away your life savings on sports and crypto, the dream of perpetual gooning—these are the disordered desires of a mind that’s been liquified by solitude.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but author, you just spent the article up to now complaining about people asserting that people are more lonely without evidence.

boilerupnc 1 day ago||
Surprised nobody has mentioned the rise of pet ownership into our lives (at least in the US) [0] and it’s resulting companionship benefits. Seems to me like a potential behavioral reaction to the “social stat” to help correct in some way.

[0]. https://worldanimalfoundation.org/advocate/pet-ownership-sta...

smt88 1 day ago|
If you look at graphs of children conceived vs. pet adoptions among adults over the years? It’s a pretty obvious “X” shape (pets directly replacing children)
k310 1 day ago||
It's real. Try growing old. You move to the woods because of the divorce, you have half the money and can't afford to live where there are people. The nearest towns with people (say, universities as well) are 50 miles away.

People don't even answer text messages and emails, as if they are coming from Mars and there's a surcharge on long distance calls.

Who here wakes up, looks at the phone and there are zero dots?

Geez, I send messages, really nice photos, encouragement, invitations. Growing old ain't easy.

alexpotato 1 day ago|
So this is anecdotal but lines up with the points of the article:

- texting has given me the ability to stay in touch with lots of my friends

- being a suburban dad with 3 kids who have activities has made it VERY difficult to see other dads in person

Couple this with a lot of the other families having two working parents, spontaneous "let's go hang out, dude" is effectively zero.

What's more common is having to either:

- have a routine scheduled "dads hang out" event

- scheduling a hang out 2-3 weeks in advance (which also sometimes gets cancelled due to "sick kid", "wife got stuck in traffic" etc)

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