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Posted by mooreds 9 hours ago

I don't want the details(michaelheap.com)
314 points | 178 commentspage 2
rhyperior 8 hours ago|
I suspect the author still misunderstands the SVP. If I were the SVP of engineering saying this to someone, especially someone who is in a non-core engineering role like product, I probably recognize that they have a tendency to verbally spew and I want them to focus on the risk mitigation and response plan. I’ve already talked to my engineering leader because they informed me immediately, and I’ve already read the incident details.

But also the post reads like it comes from an inexperienced/immature service org, so maybe they’re just sorting their operational response process out.

feoren 6 hours ago||
"Okay, then I'm going to rewomble the dinglehop, which should un-galvatrate the percapitator." Why is the SVP in the meeting at all? If they don't want the details, they can't contribute to the change, or even evaluate whether the change makes sense at all. The SVP could be completely removed from this situation and the outcome would be exactly the same. Which shouldn't be surprising, since that's almost always true of all executives anywhere.

> Everyone nods their head, says "that makes sense", and we all move on with our day.

Why? Why do you need to be intimidated into actually making effective change? Why is everyone walking around with their hands tied, unable or afraid to enact change? Probably because of the terrible leadership at this company.

>> "We missed it because Alice was on holiday and Bob thought the Widgets team owned it".

> Okay. How do we make ownership unambiguous when someone is unavailable?

You cannot take this step without details. That Bob-Alice story is the details. You do actually need to know that story before you can take the step of knowing that "unambiguous ownership" would be a worthwhile change to make. What exactly is this SVP doing again?

This entire post could be summarized as "executives are useless" and "do the 5-whys", both of which everyone already knows.

groundzeros2015 9 hours ago||
This article may be more appropriate for LinkedIn.
moofin_men 1 hour ago||
Yeah it reads to me like it's written by an LLM, although I start to doubt myself these days.

I do like the term "organizational folklore" though. Actually properly documenting processes & expectations is important (and rare).

stephbook 8 hours ago|||
Give AI vibes, so agree.

Good article write-up, I didn't need to read more than one paragraph to get all the information from the whole page.

thisoneworks 4 hours ago||
It's crazy how far i had to scroll to find someone saying exactly what i was thinking - how come AI sloppy writing like this is showing up on Hn front page?
add-sub-mul-div 9 hours ago||
Haha ouch.
cryptonector 4 hours ago||
The post-mortem process can cover all of these things:

  - what happened
  - impact
  - root causes
  - what will be changed (commitments)
You can't really talk about what to change w/o talking about root causes, and you can't talk about that without talking about what happened. You also can't consider the costs of commitments to be made w/o discussing actual and potential impact because resources are limited and the cost of opportunity is real.

It's fine for executives to get only a summary of impact + commitments. But the whole post-mortem process has to be followed, and some people have to be aware of all the details.

advael 3 hours ago||
I can't help but notice that a climate of fear around being deemed non-essential or otherwise getting on an authority figure's bad side tends to create significant mismatches in priorities and breakdowns of trust that could be upstream of significant organizational inefficiency in a variety of situations. Perhaps solutions to meta-problems of this nature might be high-leverage, as the thought leaders like to say
dsr_ 8 hours ago||
The executive did not display empathy.

People need to tell their stories. They need to be heard and have their work and its difficulty respected.

That's what went wrong. Everything else is an abuse victim rationalizing their abuse.

SillyUsername 4 hours ago|
Agreed, I came looking for a post like this.

I can't be the only person who thought this is a highly intelligent person being inadvertently gaslit by the SVP into thinking the exec is right to be dismissive with "I don't want the details" because introspection is common in intelligent people.

Had someone said that to me I'd have walked away after saying "fine I'll sort it'.

This illustrates that "trust" to do the job, and since they didn't want the details of the problem, they therefore don't need the specific solution description. This kind of response is also the same level of respect, it's either seen as trust in ability, or just downright disdain with plausible deniability for being rude.

insanetake 9 hours ago||
Every post-mortem I've done had:

1. timeline of events

2. impact

3. 5 whys — the details of how and why things happend

4. actionable items

I've never seen a post-mortem without actionable items.

mooreds 8 hours ago||
Do the actionable items usually get implemented?
sethammons 7 hours ago||
You can expect what you inspect - Peter Drucker

Action items need an a forcing feature (like an SLO) to insure they are picked up. And someone needs to follow up when the item isn't handled timely. It should show up in team performance metrics and guide changes to processes to insure they get done.

4lx87 8 hours ago|||
The important part is the action items are assigned an owner and executed.

I’ve done plenty of postmortems and many meetings where we go through the motions but “leadership” does not assign and address follow-ups. Most organizations pay lip service to reliability.

mooreds 8 hours ago||
I agree. Finding the time to update docs, processes and code based on a post-mortem is, from my experience, the hardest part. Critical, but difficult.
Pxtl 7 hours ago||
Actionable items go onto the backlog. The backlog grows from the top.

As a stopgap, a manual pre-flight check is added. The number of manual pre-flight checks becomes a ridiculous overhead but it gives a clear person to blame when something goes wrong.

Sharlin 7 hours ago||
Some of the best life advice I learned during conscription as a squad leader: do not explain if an explanation is not asked for. If you (or, importantly, your subordinates!) mess something up and are confronted by a superior, the only correct reply is "Yes sir I screwed up sir I’m sorry sir it won’t happen again".
antonvs 4 hours ago|
That could make sense in the military. It could make sense for an offshore IT org whose role is to provide warm-bodied yes-men, or similar situations. But it’s catastrophic for a creative organization that’s actually doing anything other than CRUD apps or something equally mechanical, because it means management can’t possibly understand the systems that the company’s income depends on, which means they can’t possibly manage effectively.
Sharlin 4 hours ago||
It’s still up to them to ask. If they want to know the whole causal chain from distal to proximal, so be it. And if they never ask, I doubt it would help at all trying to explain anyway – they’d just zone out – and might be a good idea to start looking for a new job.

In any case, the actually important question "How to make sure this won’t happen again?" would presumably include the relevant parts of what "this" is as well. But in a more actionable frame.

baud9600 8 hours ago||
I think the problem is when the execs aren’t looking at change-for-the-better. Instead they’re looking to appoint blame. Moving to a position of assumed competency in your staff and taking the perspective of how-to-improve-next-time is a real step forward in maturity. My guess is it’s rare and blame is easier: most management doesn’t reach this level, instead it’s immature.
Lerc 8 hours ago|
I think that's a problem domain in itself. Identify when failures that occur even when skilled people doing their jobs properly, adjust the environment so that they no longer happen.

It is understandably a completely different task compared to what those skilled people are specialised to do. You probably need a dedicated role to do it.

Perhaps you could call them a manager. Their job is to see the multiple parts of the system. They should ask for the Details of what happened so they can determine why the problem occurred.

Consider one of the problems listed in the article

>"The alert fired, but the on-call engineer had already dealt with twenty low-value alerts that evening".

The engineer can say they were busy, they didn't see the alert, that they are swamped with things they think are low-value. Someone else can say the alert fired. Each person involved may have their own perspective, with different ideas as to what the problem actually is.

It's easy when you see problem described in terms of what the solution is. Someone needs to figure that out, to do that they need the details.

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