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Posted by mooreds 11 hours ago

I don't want the details(michaelheap.com)
337 points | 190 commentspage 4
jkingsbery 7 hours ago|
There's a reason 5 Why's Analysis is a thing. If you just say "here's a bunch of stuff we're changing," but you haven't said enough about the root cause, then no one will understand whether we're doing enough (or too much; or the wrong things). I like the framing of being empathetic - everyone is smart, doing the best they can with their knowledge and experience at the time - but sometimes we didn't do all the right things, and getting feedback from more senior engineers helps drive that improvement.
locknitpicker 7 hours ago|
> There's a reason 5 Why's Analysis is a thing. If you just say "here's a bunch of stuff we're changing," but you haven't said enough about the root cause, then no one will understand whether we're doing enough (or too much; or the wrong things).

No, that's not the point at all.

Root cause analysis and context and tradeoff analysis and plans are still critical requirements.

But not everyone needs to do root cause analysis and evaluate tradeoffs and review plans. Some stakeholders don't need any of that. They pay you to care, so that they don't need to.

What these stakeholders care about is whether you can fix things, how are you planning on how to fix things, how many resources you need to allocate to fix things, and when are things fixed.

Different audiences require different messages because they have different concerns and responsibilities.

Does a project manager need to know the failure rate of a DSL connection of a customer that reported an outage? You might, but does the project manager need to?

MattGrommes 5 hours ago||
Exactly. The point of the article is that the boss just needs to know that you have a real plan, not 3 Hopes in a trench coat.
skyberrys 5 hours ago||
So in summary, instead of details propose how to change the system so that instead of hearing perfectly reasonable details about why the current system failed, go straight for changing the systems to prevent the chance of failure again.

I like this plan of action, it removes focus from what happened in the past to how can we prevent it from happening in the future.

UnreachableCode 10 hours ago||
What if you work at an organisation that doesn't ask "How do we prevent this from happening again?"
jameshart 10 hours ago||
Organizations don’t choose whether or not to ask questions. People do. The behavior of an organization is the sum of the actions of the people in it. If you are a member of an organization, and you ask ‘how do we prevent this from happening again?’ Guess what? The organization just learned how to ask that question.

Now it just needs to learn how to answer it, and act on the answer.. but step one seems solvable.

mooreds 10 hours ago||
That feels like a tough place to work. I would worry about burnout and churning employees if I didn't work at a place that tried to improve every day.

Maybe I'm a bit of a pollyana, but most places I worked had folks who cared and wanted to improve things.

UnreachableCode 10 hours ago||
>most places I worked had folks who cared and wanted to improve things

Where are these places? It feels like they are hard to come by, and their hiring requirements can be highly competitive

davidee 6 hours ago||
I've never seen an incident report or postmortem that didn't include action items to cover the core issue noted in this writing: "can we / how do we prevent this failure mode from recurring?"

I'm not saying these moments of discovery / epiphany aren't valuable, they are and this retelling is enjoyably written.

I am saying that action items borne of incidents should be de rigueur.

antonvs 6 hours ago|
Right, this is not even table stakes, it’s the whole point of a post-mortem.

When you have a bug in a program, you fix it. This is just a variation of that incredibly obvious “advice” applied at a slightly different level.

xivzgrev 10 hours ago||
Interesting. At our org we always do both. Root cause, what are we changing. I assumed that was standard practice.

If you just explain what happened and why, that's fine but...how are you going to make sure it doesn't happen again?

The problem I found more vexing as a manager was: how can you prevent this KIND of problem from occurring?

I'd have someone on my team make a technical error and xyz wouldn't work. Wed talk thru it, and they wouldn't make that exact mistake again. But there's literally 10k things that can go wrong in our system, so then a related mistake would happen later.

What they needed was improved pattern recognition vs if this / then that which comes from post mortems.

thih9 8 hours ago||
This reads like a LinkedIn post. I know kagi translate[1] supports "LinkedIn" language - could someone with an account there copy that article and translate from "LinkedIn" to "English"? I wonder if we'd uncover some simpler meaning this way.

Edit: I was wrong. It still reads like LinkedIn to me but “translating” doesn’t help. Thanks in any case.

[1]: https://translate.kagi.com/

wolfy1993 10 hours ago||
This is similar to the approach in healthcare, at least my experience in pharmacy.

When an error occurs we find the root cause but in 99% of cases a change to the environment/process is required to avoid it in the future.

Humans are all imperfect, their competence will change hour to hour let alone day to day. But you can control a system and put checks in place (admittedly a human can still do the process wrong, but then you need to think how the process can be clearer).

No-blame culture is very effective at providing an open environment to share mistakes, learn, but most importantly avoid reoccurance.

sceptic123 8 hours ago||
SVP sounds like a dingle to me. Author is justifying it with some magical thinking, "Oh he's not being rude, he's being smart"
plourens 9 hours ago||
If I recall correctly, in The Pragmatic Engineer, this was described simply as "provide options, not excuses" and is a critical way of building credibility.
assimpleaspossi 4 hours ago|
What can be done, when writing an article, to not stumble during reading when an unknown abbreviation such as SVP occurs?
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