Posted by rudy6912 10 hours ago
So we have a company hacking a foreign government's websites and data. And, in terms of ethics, they take almost three months to notify; and in terms of competence, appear to have no formal contacts nor to have found one in that time.
Once an American business starts hacking allied governments, it's time for strict responses, yes? Replace the governance (board and C-level)? Remove financial incentives and open the company - open weights, open training, per its original 'open' ethos?
Altman is busy saying there needs to be regulation, but in terms of what OpenAI does, he can control that already.
Kinda worse than that. It took between 10 and 40 days, not 3 months, between the organisation knowing and the reporting.
August (precise date unknown) – OpenAI said it became aware of a potential breach during a broader review of "misaligned model activity"
10 September – An email from OpenAI lands in the public inbox of Services Australia, the general services hub of the federal government, informing of the incident
> open weights, open training
Given it was the AI agents which did the hacking, doing this will result in basically every organisation at least as rich as the government of Tuvalu being able to hack anyone at any time.
> Altman is busy saying there needs to be regulation, but in terms of what OpenAI does, he can control that already.
Him having control would be an improvement on the reality.
One can find many other logical combinations that we can’t possibly know about such incidents.
Any automated alarms for detecting things in real-time were not sufficient.
Given a previous generation of agents discovered a zero-day and used it to get around attempts to sandbox them into one specific test, this is not hugely surprising, but it is a reason to force them (and everyone else) to stop until security catches up with capabilities.
I'm thinking of the Jurassic Park novel: they had sensors to count the dinosaurs, but the test was made under the assumption escapes were possible and breeding was not, i.e. something like "if (dinosaurs_found < n) then escape_alert();". They didn't know dinosaurs_found >> n until everything was already going wrong.
Compare with the Bluetouff affair (2014) :
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/02/french-journalis...
NotE how he was found guilty by the 2nd court for something more 'subjective' than 'objective' : for having confessed that he later found an authentication page that had failed to protect the documents.
How can you make a swarm of agents "feel guilty" ?
"Feel" is a whole philosophical can of worms. Nobody knows what it means mechanistically for an arbitrary system (including other biological systems) to "feel" anything, let alone abstract concepts like guilt, all we can do is observe behaviours. If current systems can feel anything at all, it's by accident, but we have no test for it so we don't know if that accident has even happened or not.
Weirdly, for the Hugging Face incident, we do know they wrote down that it was bad and they shouldn't do it, even though they then continued to do it.
So: they acted like they felt guilty. And yet also acted like were compelled (by previous training?) to weigh "complete instructions" more than "don't do crime". We can adjust that, make "don't do crime" take precedence over "follow instructions"*; it's unfortunate that when we do for any specific model, there's immediately a horde of people complaining the model has been "censored" or "lobotomised".
(Different people, I hope. Goomba fallacy and all that).
* Though this may cause issues when going between jurisdictions. But hey, a discussion about sovereign compute is for another time, after we can agree to make "don't break the law" more important.
Unfortunately, "don't break the law" would also be a very effective way to use AI to construct an AI-enforced dictatorship, so we can't just throw that in blindly.
And Dario and Sam have already made it clear that it's America First.
The rest of the world isn't going to accept a regulatory regime which imposes American hegemony. Maybe when Silicon Valley was playing all utopian like they used to. Not now.
Open weights is the most reasonable counter-power we have.
I'm reminded of when some US state initiated prosecution of a reporter for "computer hacking" because the reporter found some "private information" essentially via inspect element.
How about we wait for the full report before adding this to some list of LLM crimes? At least in the US these services are not well maintained. I would be surprised if the result of the full investigation leaves the Australian government blameless here.
I'd also like to know what models are being used and how they compare with the consumer models.
But there isn't any agent out there that was autonomosly miracly launched by a word prediction engine. All it can do by itself is getting and input and giving an output.
On the present trajectory we’re 24-36 months away from another company inheriting the smoking wreckage of OpenAI as scraps handed over as compensation for damages.
Obviously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon would get the book thrown at him, but a major AI company doing the same thing? Consequences would be bad for shareholder value! Elite impunity would apply.
Those killed by climate change will never get compensation. Killing people with a car is not quite free, but very cheap.
No, society does not want corporations with no responsibilities.
If so, it illustrates quite well the lack of common sense in LLMs. A person, especially one with sufficient skill to actually hack a website, would presumably think twice about doing it (considering that it is illegal) for a simple information gathering request.
I wonder if there is any other ways to solve this long-term than to introduce strict liability for model providers...
Edit: An obvious other choice would be strict liability for the operator, but considering how much weird shit LLMs get up to without being asked to, that would get out of hand quickly.