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Posted by signa11 10 hours ago

Ideas on modernizing the open-source desktop(lwn.net)
207 points | 246 commentspage 2
metchio 57 minutes ago|
I just want someone to put the same concepts and ideas of Windows Phone OS (Lumia era) into desktop computer. That's all I desire. A beautiful type-oriented experience. I feels like with the rise of LLMs and Agents could be even bigger than 20 years ago
Naru41 3 hours ago||
https://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-UI-Guidelines/Conte...

In 2004, the Eclipse IDE established consistent UI guidelines, built upon a cross-platform GUI library. API desgin is great, Looks and feels robust. The future of desktop GUIs looked bright. Little did we know that 25 years later it would turn out to be such a disaster.

arijun 3 hours ago|
Care to elaborate? How is eclipse a disaster, and how does that pertain to pushing new ideas for an OS?
6581 2 hours ago||
I'd assume "disaster" refers to "future of desktop GUIs", not to Eclipse.
WCSTombs 8 hours ago||
> The final, particularly strong, objection from the tech community is "don't touch my stuff". People get angry when they have worked hard to get their desktop environment just as they like it and something changes to disrupt that.

Yeah, this can be a little extreme, and I feel we can benefit from being a little more open to trying new things.

The part about designing specifically for large displays and widescreen monitors was interesting. We can also reverse it, though: right now I'm away from home, and I only have this old laptop which is mostly great but has a shitty touchpad as the mouse, and I have to think this must be really common. However, this situation seems to be completely ignored by all desktop UX design. We seem to be pretty good at coming up with ways to use the mouse in our programs, but when the mouse is hard to control and unreliable, it causes pain. I guess I can use ratpoison or something, but that seems to be giving up too much.

Regarding the AI going deep into the filesystem and organizing my data...I'm extremely skeptical of inserting any kind of inherent unpredictability into how I interact with the computer. Giving a command or input should produce a well-defined and predictable (in principle) action. Getting rid of that paradigm fundamentally changes the relationship between the user and the computer in a way that, in my opinion at least, greatly diminishes its usefulness as a tool.

reichstein 3 hours ago||
> Yeah, this can be a little extreme, and I feel we can benefit from being a little more open to trying new things.

Sure, sometimes, when we have the time and surplus to deal with changes to things that already work well enough, and are not essential to doing our actual job.

That should be something you can opt in to.

Changing things for someone who's actually doing real work on top of the existing setup, is an undesired hurdle.

People are change-averse because they've been taught that change is costly, and they completely rationally ask "what's in it for me?". You want them to buy in to the change, you better give a good answer to that, one which is a more than negligible benefit in a few cases that the user may not care about. "Good enough" is good _enough_, it doesn't _need_ changes. Any change has to pay for its own retraining cost, in time and mental effort, otherwise it's a net negative for that user.

Being change-averse is the rational default behavior. Ignoring that, or even belittling it, is disrespecting your users.

someonebaggy 7 hours ago|||
Here's another thing that's just completely ignored: touchpad as anything other than a mouse replacement. It's possible for a touchpad to allow things like pinch-to-zoom, but nobody's really doing that. You could even use it as a low res painting tablet.
gmueckl 4 hours ago|||
Pinch to zoom and two finger scrolling work well for me in most Windows apps. Apple has a few touchoad gestures that I don't believe have equivalents elsewhere, but they would be pretty neat.

The main issue with going beyond the mouse is that it involves changes across the event handling stack. For track pads, you have to build multi-touch infrastructure up ro a point and then there is a decision: what are gestures that are handled at a desktop level? What are gestures that get converted into semantically similar events (e.g. tap->LMB click)? What gets passed through as multi-touch? This ends up touching a lot of parts of the desktop software stack and the amount of required buy in to get this done on Linux seems massive.

someonebaggy 3 hours ago||
Then change the stack. We can't be stuck on obsolete inefficient mental models. We are programmers, we can change software to fit new requirements. We already found ways to deliver keyboard input to the focused window.
account42 4 hours ago||||
I guess one problem is that the capability of touchpads really varies. Not all of them support recognizing multiple touch points for example.

And the original UX issue is much easier solved by bringing a mouse with your laptop.

nottorp 4 hours ago||
> And the original UX issue is much easier solved by bringing a mouse with your laptop.

... or using an Apple laptop. The one thing they haven't broken yet is that their machines are perfectly usable without a mouse.

Of course, the argument is weakening with every recent OS release, since they try to make it useless in other ways.

tsss 4 hours ago||||
Well, Apple is doing it. The touchpad experience on macbooks is really on another level than all other laptops and one of the main reasons that's keeping me there.
NamlchakKhandro 2 hours ago||
It's a gimmik
data-ottawa 1 hour ago||
How is the primary way of interacting with your computer being good a gimmick?

I try to use my partner’s windows laptop and it’s borderline unusable for me. She only almost uses it with a mouse plugged in. Meanwhile I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone plug in a mouse to a MacBook that wasn’t docked to a monitor and keyboard.

akho 4 hours ago|||
Pinch-to-zoom is handled by libinput, and exposed to gtk apps. Works fine in firefox. Works in GtkWebkit views. works in Loupe the image viewer. works in Gnome Maps. Even works in Emacs, ffs.

Are you on X or smth?

someonebaggy 3 hours ago|||
I'm actually on a desktop without a touchpad.
akho 2 hours ago||
I don't understand your initial comment at all, then. You want touchpads to have features they already have, which you haven't tried, because you don't have a touchpad?..

Or was there a different meaning?

epihelix 2 hours ago|||
I have no idea why you've been downvoted? Touchpad pinch-to-zoom has worked out of the box for years now (and also works fine on X11, also).
fabian2k 6 hours ago|||
I think the big issue is that the user doesn't have a choice in many cases. Windows obviously doesn't give the user a choice, they made the start menu much shittier and you had to live with it or go away. Popular distributions like Ubuntu also focus on one desktop environment, and it's often not easy to switch (it's possible of course, but at least when I tried it a long time ago just installing a different desktop wasn't enough).

Making it easier to choose allows for much more experimentation. I'm using Niri right now, which certainly isn't something you can just give users as a default.

eviks 4 hours ago||
> Windows obviously doesn't give the user a choice, they made the start menu much shittier and you had to live with it or go away

That's obviously wrong, you could install an alternative start menu and stay where you are

graemep 4 hours ago||
People from outside the tech community also do not like things changing, they just do not have the same choices or have the same voice. I have come across people who use old versions of Windows because they do not like UI changes, but they cannot do it forever, and they not have another choice.
utopiah 3 hours ago||
It's been a week that Valve has started shipped KDE in a VR headset running Linux.

Meanwhile it's been years since KDE Connect allows devices to talk to each, sending SMS on desktop from phone, pausing phone podcast from desktop, sharing files from XR headset to desktop, etc.

A lot could be improved but the modern open-source desktop is already doing great.

cfiggers 2 hours ago||
I think we could get a long way toward Scott's "working memory" ask by just making a smarter Clipboard Manager.

Many people don't use a clipboard manager at all, and even what exists today would be a huge upgrade for anyone accustomed to only a single clipboard "slot" that's instantly overwritten the next time you copy anything. Windows has one built in (though turned off by default), KDE Plasma ships with one, MacOS has third-party ones IIUC (not a Mac myself).

But imagine a clipboard manager that wherever you hit Ctrl+C also simply grabs the title of the active window and a deep link/URI that points to the cursor's current location (if a browser then it would be a URL, if a local program then some kind of local file:// URI). If you want to be really fancy, snap a screenshot too (maybe make this opt-in both for privacy and screenshot storage size concerns).

Then, whenever you pull up your clipboard history, a) it reminds you where you grabbed whatever text or image or document etc. that is, and b) with one click you can navigate back there.

I think we might get something like half of what Scott is talking about with "working memory" by adding this one affordance to existing clipboard history paradigms.

anonreplier 2 hours ago|
Agreed, I often see colleagues on screenshare using notepad as their clipboard manager and it's painful.
benrutter 5 hours ago||
I actually think there's some awesome UX innovation in the world of Linux. In fact, one of the things I love and appreciate about Linux, is that there's such a variety of what the desktop could be. I personally use Elementary OS, which is very polished and reliable, but very much not trying to innovate how a desktop environment fundamentally works.

But for those who want to experiment, I've seen: - Tiling window managers (I3, Awesome, etc) - Highly customizable panels and launchers (Rofi, Lemonbar, etc) - Scrolling window managers (Nori, and others I think)

Honestly, the linux desktop has a lot of criticisms you could level at it, but lack of innovation isn't one. Where Windows and Mac have agreed on a standard that hasn't changed much in the last 10 years, Linux has about a zillion different visions for what a desktop can be.

pythonRon 3 hours ago||
The Linux desktop does need work, but it's not 100% up to speed yet, either. The ultimate UX can be found when the user has 100% control over the experience and we aren't there yet. Wayland won't allow window size/position to be remembered between sessions and too many UX designers think the desktop is just a big phone. Yes, we need work on UX and the first step should be to get Wayland to allow the user the same flexibility we enjoyed with X11. Using Linux with multiple screens means reverting to X11 just to keep from going nuts.
jdub 1 hour ago||
Most people are not remotely concerned about having "100% control over the experience". They want something reliable and understandable.

Only a relatively small subset of tech enthusiasts want to tweak everything, and there are PLENTY of options for those people.

gf000 3 hours ago||
> Wayland won't allow window size/position to be remembered between sessions

It's not on the program itself to restore its position, but on the compositor, who has every right and control to do just that. AFAIK it does work in plasma Wayland.

tancop 8 hours ago||
I would replace the start menu with a Raycast clone. Most people want to open files, ask a question or run an app they know the name of, not scroll a list of things they might never use. If you add in semantic search users don't even need to know the app name.

It's also a perfect use for local System One models that can classify prompts and forward them to the right module - calculator for math, distrobox for shell commands, LLM for natural language questions and normal search for everything else. Not using a fixed classifier because plugins should be able to add their own question types.

The article mentioned WinFS and relational filesystems. That's another good idea, integrate metadata so you can support use cases like finding all pictures of your dog or all playlists with Ed Sheeran songs (to remove them). Everything bound to the file entries instead of ID3 tags inside the file or app specific databases. It would be a lot more reliable and probably faster.

IIRC bcachefs is already a relational database but I don't know how good the query APIs are. If we can't do full extendable tags then at least add user defined groups/tags like Work and Games and Photos to make finding things easier. People remember what a file is better than where it's stored.

csnover 7 hours ago||
> I would replace the start menu with a Raycast clone. Most people want to open files, ask a question or run an app they know the name of, not scroll a list of things they might never use. If you add in semantic search users don't even need to know the app name.

So I’m looking at the Raycast web site, and aside from the UI being a little different, Raycast seems like it is itself a clone of the already long-existing KDE Plasma start menu (Kickoff) and KRunner? I guess the only thing missing from the KDE one is “AI”. Is there something I am missing about how Raycast is some innovation not already realised in the Linux desktop?

> If we can't do full extendable tags then at least add user defined groups/tags like Work and Games and Photos to make finding things easier. People remember what a file is better than where it's stored.

Extended attributes[0] already exist if you want. But, as the linked wiki page indicates, filesystem attributes are fragile. And what is the tangible benefit? In practice, users can already just dump all their files into a random directory and use Baloo or whatever. Which is probably better anyway since it’s easier to have a D-Bus API with multiple user-space implementations than having to wipe and reformat to use a different filesystem if you have some problem with it.

[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Extended_attributes

jauntywundrkind 7 hours ago|||
Raycast is successful because it's an incredibly widely used and adopted integration layer. The official repo has thousands of plugins, pretty well maintained together, collectively, and there are thousands more out there. https://github.com/raycast/extensions/tree/main/extensions

KDE krunner has plugins. But there is not afaik a big tent ownership system like Raycast. And krunner is only going to attract KDE users. Raycast is mainly mac, but also, there's Vicinae which runs on a lot more systems, and it can run >50% of the Raycast plugins without a sweat, is designed to be drop in compatible.

It's also absurdly easy to write Raycast extensions. It uses web platform technologies that "just work", that don't have ornery toolchains and need lots of dev libraries installed. With KRunner you can probably use whatever library you want to do whatever you want, which is good, but hard, where-as with Raycast there's a pretty comprehensive and powerful API that offers a ton, that is well defined, and that other plugins will show you the way on. https://developers.raycast.com/

t_mahmood 6 hours ago||
And it's a 3rd party app that can pull the rug anytime without any consequence.
eviks 4 hours ago|||
Yes, first party owners never pulled the rug from under your OS extension, it's constitutionally prohibited
t_mahmood 2 hours ago||
Good thing about open source is there are always forks.
eviks 2 hours ago||
Bad thing is there are never enough resources to maintain them
t_mahmood 1 hour ago||
Not the point is it? You're still not bound to a entities control.
jauntywundrkind 6 hours ago|||
Vicinae works great and is compatible with most plugins, ye FUD grump. It's what I use every day!
t_mahmood 2 hours ago||
My issue is with closed source launchers
malmz 7 hours ago|||
Raycast is krunner but with better UI, more features and more flexibility from plugin.
t_mahmood 6 hours ago||
KRunner also has plugins, Gnome Also has search extensions, without depending on a 3rd party app that might pull the rug anytime.
t_mahmood 7 hours ago|||
Last thing I would want AI running on my desk and doing unpredictable things. I love my silly simple Gnome desk or barebones i3 with everything mapped to my preference.

I can search and enter my search, and expect same results everytime, so muscle memory friendly. Gnome's search does calculation in search just fine, or search files, no need of any models. And app can provide their own search endpoint that gnome uses, to search in the app. Repetable, simple, and light.

Its boring, but hey, your everyday thing that is your starting point of the day do not need random behavior, or getting dependent on some 3rd party app that suddenly pulls the rug from under you.

This everything AI is so tiring.

eviks 4 hours ago|||
> not scroll a list of things they might never use.

Why would that be the case when you can have a no-scrolling-required list of apps you actually use?

jauntywundrkind 7 hours ago||
Good suggestions yes. Strong ideas. Ultimately the desktop has been content to let the apps take over more and more, while not extending itself. Actually making the OS something that actual activity happens on feels absolutely essential. Making a Raycast/Vicinae (the pretty great open source port) integral feels like it would go a long way towards this end, of offering a consistent way to expose & access the toolbox.

I'd love to see an agentic OS where the OS and apps can both talk in terms of MCP things like resources, tools, skills. Yes these are primarily geared towards agents, but they are also acceptable machine-to-machine interfaces to script against too (so long as the type signature remains compatible).

Android's Intents feel related, similar-ish. It's a pity no one bit on PK's WebIntents. That could have been an interesting way to create abstractions for intents, for activities, for stuff happening on the computer. Notably the xopc actually had activities and a journal that let apps contribute meaningful intent to the OS as a whole. But mostly it just ended up as a history viewer there. Android mostly uses intents as a launcher. But this idea of having the activities of the system as available abstractions could go much further.

Vinnl 5 hours ago||
The article also links to the video recording of the actual talk. I usually prefer text, but video might be a better medium for conveying these ideas: https://media.ccc.de/v/kde2026-7-are_we_really_going_to_use_...

(link timestamped to 29min, where the demo starts.)

emaro 4 hours ago|
The demo (from minute 29) is really cool.
ardeguire 1 hour ago|
I don't see it linked, but the talk is available on YouTube [1].

Scott is a very good presenter, and he clearly thinks about this stuff a lot. I really liked the demo for moving windows to the sides of the screen, since it's kind of how I use the alt-tab interface -- look at the preview for the window/app I'm looking for then tab to it or click on it. Having a visual overview of all currently open windows could be useful to me. (It might actually get me to close things I'm not currently working on! Although my dozens and dozens of browser tabs tell a different story...)

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7AfAcQwLW0

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